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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

women wearing burqa, this riles me

459 replies

southeastastra · 04/04/2014 21:08

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

OP posts:
fideline · 11/04/2014 00:09

Also because I think this whole topic of debate is a red herring. The real issue people have a problem with is not niqab or face covering but it is essentially Islam and the presence of muslims in the UK who manifest Islam

Nonsense optimist. If you dismiss whole wodges of people/opinion like that, you just fuel bad feeling.

GoshAnneGorilla · 11/04/2014 00:18

ITA with what Peaceful Optimist has said. Her last comment is perfect and is how a lot of Muslim women feel.

I also feel people seem to think any problem a Muslim woman has is due to Islam.

My sister-in-law lives in a Muslim majority country. She is oppressed.
She cannot leave her neighbourhood because it is surrounded by military checkpoints.

Her previous home was taken over by the military and her and her family were forced to flee through gunfire.

She has to queue for hours for food.

She struggles to get oil to heat her home or cook.

Her husband (who is suffering through all this too) was recently detained incommunicado by the regime for a month, during that time she didn't know if he was alive or dead.

And you think it's her hijab which is the symbol of oppression and inequality here? Would her not wearing her hijab and becoming an atheist liberate her from all of this?

justanuthermanicmumsday · 11/04/2014 00:28

uri you can buy one its not illegal. ive seen non muslims buying them they seemed fascinated with it mainly the abayas designer ones. top money in those crazy money. ironic designers are involved with this stuff on catwalk? hence i dont buy designer ones i think it goes against principles of modesty with hefty price tag.

btw my tuppence without a full essay because i cant be bothered i dont think ill get respect here. i dont know what a burqa is since word is misused in western countries, heck i didnt know what it was until late twenties

based on my experiences i think you are wrong to think fathers and male guardians force the hijab niqab or burqa onto women. speaking about the uk usa and european countries today i would say 90percent if not more of the girls and women are rediscovering their faith and taking up the hijab themselves, against their parents wishes. many parents think their daughters have been brainwashed when they wear the hijab forget niqab. many will even disown them.

i was 24 when i decided to wear the hijab. i looked into islam myself. i had many questions my parents couldnt answer because they were uneducated themselves. islam as they taught it were rituals that were unexplained. i dont blame them since their parents lacked here too. but i was bullied by my parents theyd taunt me everyday as i made my way out for work or uni. they were very secular yet had islamic elements they adhered to i.e friday prayers, ramadan fasting, zakat etc. but hijab was not one of them. hijab was just a loose scarf for mosque studies and never used again after that, except in front of elders? so i dont agree with this patriarchal idea and hijab in the west it is certainly not true.

justanuthermanicmumsday · 11/04/2014 00:32

goshannegorilla as a muslim im ashamed to say through all media crap i never thought of it in the way you suggested. i too thought perhaps islamic regimes in those countries are not following islamic laws properly but manipulating the religion for their own means. in reality its not to do with religion at all, these people dont care about God the slightest they are after worldly gains.

GarlicAprilShowers · 11/04/2014 00:46

What Tethers said (again - I'll get a fan club badge, shall I?) The opposite of modesty might be showing off in English and, actually, I have no problem with woman, man or child showing off when they are proud of themselves. We set cultural limits on acceptable amounts of showing off but, overall, self-confidence and self-worth are laudable qualities.

There is no direct translation of awrah. A poster here rudely belittled a comment of mine about honour & shame, choosing to suppose I wanted to raise the question of honour killings. I think that showed her ignorance more than mine (but then I would, heh.) In our medieval times - alongside the birth of Islam - we took the concepts of honour, shame, and modesty every bit as seriously as Islam now does. People, communities and nations were violently murdered for those ideas. In Europe, this was engendered & enforced by the Church. We've been trying to get rid of this damaging triad of notions - and their ugly sisters, pride & prejudice - for the past couple of hundred years. We're succeeding. Honour now lingers in expressions such as 'word of honour' and 'to honour a debt' but has completely lost its force as something like the Chinese 'face'. Likewise, shame lingers as a word in 'for shame' and 'shamefaced', etc, and we still feel the emotion of shame but view it as psychologically damaging. We value guilt, and seek to exorcise the burning self-loathing of shame through love & compassion. Modesty, I'm delighted to say, no longer has any physical connotations at all. It's now the cultural ceiling on showing off, that's all. Physical modesty is manacled to shame in one's body. We dislike physical shame because we see it as psychologically cancerous, therefore we cannot value physical modesty.

Once again, I'm trying to encompass a cultural megalith in one paragraph. In my perception, we dislike or mistrust the covering of muslim women because it represents a set of beliefs we've worked hard to throw off in our pursuit of individual freedoms & social equalities. So many have suffered so much for honour, shame, and modesty.

Earlier today, I spent a few hours revisiting biblical histories I haven't read for [ahem] 40 years or more, finding myself shocked anew by the terrifying control Judaism and Christianity exerted over all aspects of human life, and the grotesque punishments enacted on transgressors. (Other cultures did/do these things, too, but I'm looking at the linear progression of our monotheistic belief systems in particular.) I hope you can understand why I'm happy we no longer cut off thieves' hands, stone adulterous women or burn homosexuals. It frightens me that Islam - in the form of sharia - strives to maintain the harsh precepts of old, and to reinstate them where they had been softened. Such harsh regimes hinge upon the honour/shame principle.

Some readers will skim this post and think that [a] I'm accusing muslims of being backward; and [b] I think every observant muslim woman covers herself for fear of violence. Let me answer that [a] I accuse a majority of muslim leaders of being backward and cruel, not the religion itself or the majority of followers; [b] The fear I perceive is not a direct fear of personal violence, it's a fear of 'shame' - of loss of 'modesty'.

It would be lovely to explore the theme of honour-shame-modesty in more depth, in the specific context of Islam, but that won't work. I can only cite basics - the quran says cover your genitals, the founding hadiths give a few more rules that would be met by English workwear. After that, though, we get lost in sophistry and 900 years' worth of clerics disputing the exact meaning of each given word ... And, as long as muslem women prize 'modesty' in fear of shame, we cannot understand each other on this matter. We do not have awrah.

One thing that really, really bugs me here is that if I visit a predominantly muslim country, I cover. I do this out of respect for cultural habits and fear of what I'll suffer if I don't observe those habits. Yet muslims in this secular country seem to resent being asked to observe our cultural habits, at least in as far as dropping the dress code we find upsetting. Northern Europeans attach great importance to being able to see people's faces. So great that my gut feel is "get used to it", despite never having objected to any unusual mode of dress before in my life. I believe most non-muslem Europeans share my feeling, especially if they are bothered by gender segregation.

There's yet another very complex issue at stake, which is about multi-culturalism. France has taken a different approach because France is mono-cultural. France has government organisations devoted to keeping France French. French multi-culturalism says "Welcome, new French people!" Britain, on the other hand, aims for blended culturalism. Some other nations (I forget which) have parallel culturalism - and this is a hot topic at the moment, as we seem to have inadvertently developed parallelism while taking our governmental eye off the ball. It creates tension in the parallel communities; we just haven't got the social structures for it. We want people to blend, without having to make laws about it!

I think I'd better put my flameproof suit on.

Oh peaceful, while I'm writing Mumsnet's longest post Blush

'It perpetuates male power over society, and women who wrap up are complicit.' - This for me is the most dangerous idea expressed here as it is victim blaming

How can it be victim-blaming if the women are not victims?

GarlicAprilShowers · 11/04/2014 00:48

I see a lot of relevant posts went up while I was typing my mini-dissertation Blush I'll catch up tomorrow.

justanuthermanicmumsday · 11/04/2014 00:59

so do you want the uk to be like france? all dress the same, eat the same walk talk the same.

i dont know any place as home other than the uk, but if it went down that route unlike muslims who have chosen to stay in france and throw the hijab out id leave. as bizarre as this may sound to some i do believe in an after life this world is one phase of life i wont remove my clothes to fit in. i manage to respect people who wear different clothes to me so why cant they do the same? i thought that was what the uk prided itself on.

garlic the truth is people dont want muslims to integrate or any ethnic minorities to intergrate they want us to assimilate. so drop all sense of our previous identities? we may as well get rid of our smelly food, our sparkly saris, our long hair, our weird languages after all its soo rude to be bilingual no one can butt into a conversation right?

i think its a disgusting idea and what france did was disugsting too. i was astonished the uk part of the eu did nothing but stood back and watched. girls were denied their examinations if they didnt remove their hijab to sit it? this civilized society?

BreakingDad77 · 11/04/2014 01:02

I dont see how Quilliam can be seen as right wing they were calling out 4:34, that being allowed to punish your wife if she is disobedient is just wrong. They appear open to relooking or criticising the quaran, which many muslims appear to be fearful of doing, and think this is just islamo-bashing etc

This discussion though will just go around in circles as you will never really know if someone is wearing it for their faith, coerced, or subliminally coerced, in addition how complicit men are wether they believe this cements there patriochal role or their wifes free choice.

One thing that would help is getting rid of black, for white or some other colour as it draws attention to you making you stick out, which is surely the opposite of modest?

justanuthermanicmumsday · 11/04/2014 01:10

any colour from head to tow sticks out. i wouldnt want to wear white, look like im wearing a huge white gazebo not to mention it would get dirty very quickly especially with british weather. you cant ban colours though. its like that debate on radio about banning the word fat or skinny.

GarlicAprilShowers · 11/04/2014 01:16

garlic the truth is people dont want muslims to integrate or any ethnic minorities to integrate

Not true in the slightest Smile We like to give a little, take a little, share a little. We've been doing it since the year dot - so much so, it's taken for granted there are no 'full-blood' Britons left any more, from any of the original tribes. We've changed our language over & over again, and are still changing it now. Our cuisine, our dress, our music, our art, our building styles ... everything 'british' is a uniquely British blend of cultures that have settled here, or made their way in by some other means. We're proud of it!

GarlicAprilShowers · 11/04/2014 01:18

look like im wearing a huge white gazebo - gave me a much needed chuckle, thanks Grin

MichelloBarner · 11/04/2014 05:54

girls were denied their examinations if they didnt remove their hijab to sit it? this civilized society?

There is so much unintended irony in that sentence it's hard to know where to start!

CoteDAzur · 11/04/2014 09:36

"do you want the uk to be like france? all dress the same, eat the same walk talk the same."

I take it you have never been to France Hmm

Martorana · 11/04/2014 09:51

Please can we lay to rest this odd notion that wanting to discuss the political, cultural and social impact of covering is synonymous with "ban the burkha". It makes any sort of sensible discussion impossible.

CoteDAzur · 11/04/2014 10:02

garlic - That long post had some interesting ideas re honour etc.

Do you really think Europe has been deliberately trying to forget the concepts of honour and shame? I have often wondered about the differences between Eastern Europe/Middle East and Western Europe in this respect, and not just re wearing mini skirts and going topless on the beach, for example.

In the UK, it is considered perfectly normal for a young adult (late teens, or 20s) to get legless on a night out, throw up on the streets and/or pass out somewhere. It seems culturally acceptable. This sort of thing just never happened when I was growing up, even in my late 20s when I was partying big time. We drank, had parties, went clubbing, stayed out until the early hours etc but nobody lost control so badly that they vomited in public and made a spectacle of themselves. Nobody had one-night-stands, either.

I have my honour and dignity, and would never get so drunk that I would be ashamed of what I did the next day. I can't really understand why many others don't have this sense of worth and honour, but it makes sense if their ancestors have been trying to "get rid of" these values for many generations.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 11/04/2014 10:19

"Nobody had one-night-stands, either."

Really? So there was no casual sex, or prostitution either.

Some of my aunts tales of what happened during WWII would make your hair stand on end then, of lonely servicemen stationed in the UK and husbands stationed abroad.

CoteDAzur · 11/04/2014 10:22

Yes, really. No casual sex, either.

There were prostitutes I suppose, but I haven't met any there. (I met some later in Amsterdam)

I had a very rich and free life pre-kids doing exactly what I wanted when I wanted, partying around the world etc and honestly don't feel that I have suffered from not having any one-night-stands and casual sex.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 11/04/2014 10:32

You have led a very sheltered life and totally unreaslitic to think that casual sex or prostition are modern inventions.

I have never had a one night stand or casual sex either, but not naiive enough to think that it wasn't happening.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 11/04/2014 10:38

Prositution is legalised or authorised in many Islamic countries.

PigletJohn · 11/04/2014 10:42

"Never happened when I was growing up"

Hahahahaha!

You must have grown up in the mythical world of Narnia.

If you care to state a year, I expect we can look up statistics on venereal disease, abortions, discarded babies and rape.

IHaveAFifthSense · 11/04/2014 10:51

I can't believe I got myself into a debate with someone who honestly believes only prostitutes had casual sex in the 'good old days', and took their points quite seriously too!

We're the men paying the prostitutes not having casual sex then, Cote? Or is it only women who can be "accused" of such a thing? Are prostitutes not women too? A very anti-feminist sentiment from someone who so vehemently argues against covering because it is "anti-feminist".

IHaveAFifthSense · 11/04/2014 10:51

Sorry, were, not we're. Bloody ipad.

Martorana · 11/04/2014 11:09

Hang on, no casual sex or one night stands? Where did you live, Toytown?

CoteDAzur · 11/04/2014 11:19

Maybe you would realise I am not a moron if you stopped to consider that I did not grow up in the UK Hmm

I grew up in Turkey - a secular country with a Muslim majority that has Middle Eastern notions of honour, shame, etc. I was comparing Western European (ex: UK) views on these ideas with those from Eastern European/Middle Eastern ones. I thought that was obvious, since I was replying to garlic's post where they were discussed.

Yes, there was no casual sex or one-night-stands. There was a lot of partying with friends, and there was sex with boyfriends. There was no getting drunk and finding yourself in bed with a stranger.

People have different perspectives on such things in other parts of the world. As with getting stupid drunk and throwing up on the streets. Which was my point.

CoteDAzur · 11/04/2014 11:22

I didn't think to repeat where I was born/grew up etc because I have said it so many times before, including once on this thread:

CoteDAzur Mon 07-Apr-14 22:06:20
You know, having been born to a Muslim family in a Muslim country, and having suffered through decades of RE on Islam...