women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

That was to Garlic

Why is modesty a harmful concept? Both men and women are required to be modest in Islam. Yes, in British culture this isn't the case. I personally am far from "modest". I'm not going to judge someone or tell them that they are oppressed because they choose to live differently though.

But why does this requirement for 'modesty' sometimes manifest itself as face-covering for women but never for men?

Unfortunately, fideline, that is not a question that I feel qualified to answer.

My point is that most of us understand little about this. When we are trying to understand something about another culture, we should do so without passing judgement. The "feminist" argument against covering is undoubtedly passing judgement about something you know very little about.

As I said before, if you are not trying to 'ban the burkha', and if it is not something causing harm to women, why it anyone's business?

Well I can attempt to understand it w/out judging. I can't attempt to understand w/out understanding though. Explanations to aid understanding seem to be in sort supply however.

Perhaps try talking to some Muslim women.

It is harming women though. It perpetuates male power over society, and women who wrap up are complicit.

Fifth there is a limit to how much I am willing to play Paxman with friends. That should be one of the strengths of anonymous online discussion.

Fair point. One of the weaknesses, however, is that you don't get to pick and choose who you ask questions to. If there is no one available who can give you an explanation, you can't expect to be informed about muslim culture and tradition instantly. A muslim online discussion board might help you to understand.

martorana many ex and self-claimed 'progressive' Muslims work with and socialise with far right groups such as The Clarion Fund, the EDL, and others. The Quilliam Foundation itself is pretty right-wing. They do this very visibly on twitter and other social media. This despite the individuals in question often have been in trouble with the police for racist acts and harassment. Yes I said racist, as they aren't just anti-Muslim but tend to dabble in white supremacist ideology as well. So I'm not just saying they are racist due to being anti-Muslim. The evidence of this is extremely visible and irrefutable.

As for 'not reading anything weird into wearing niqab', by 'weird' I actually mean imaginary. Muslim feminists themselves being practicing Muslims with knowledge of the religion and how it is put into practice are obviously not going to come up with imaginary theories as to why women REALLY wear the niqab, and dismiss the real reasons for wearing it as expressed by other Muslim women xx

I have a couple of Muslim friends who wear the hijab, and a few who don't. The two who wear the hijab do so for very different reasons- one because her husband wants her to 'dress Islamically', and one who feels that it is part of her identity as a Muslim; she feels empowered by wearing it as she is proud of her culture and feels, like some on this thread, that she is opting out of the male gaze.

I disagree with them both. I don't think covering your hair in order to be modest is empowering, and I think it is down to men to address the male gaze issue. I don't think what you wear should be dictated by your husband, along with some posters on both sides of this debate.

I don't think it is right to assume that any disagreement with the wearing of the niqab, or even the hijab in my case, is borne of ignorance. I disagree because I am a feminist and covering your hair and body in order to be modest is at odds with feminism.

Again, I have enjoyed this discussion as it has focused on the reasons for covering, rather than a discussion about whether the niqab should be banned.

I was really determined to stay away from this thread. I absolutely hate getting in to discussions with this topic because of the levels of bigotry and prejudice that you come across (though thankfully quite a lot of it has died down). Also because I think this whole topic of debate is a red herring. The real issue people have a problem with is not niqab or face covering but it is essentially Islam and the presence of muslims in the UK who manifest Islam. When I read the OP and most of the earlier comments here against niqab this is what I pictured.

Scroll down to first photo

Now a whole thread could be started about this website alone (and Im sure there is one somewhere on mumsnet already) and for me it highlights how ridiculous it is for some people on this thread to accuse hijab and niqab of hyper-sexualising women when women are sexualised to such an extent in this society that they cant even eat on the bloody train without someone seeing that as wank fodder. I digress. My point is that these crocodile tears being shed over the 'poor niqabis' are there to mask some peoples true feelings which are resentment, fear and hatred of the other. Not everyone but certainly the OP displays this in bucket loads. Now that I have got it off my chest that I think this whole debate was just started as an excuse to whip up some foaming Islamophobia I will try to express why I feel troubled with many of the assumptions being made here (cant remember all the names so forgive me if I misquote you).

An earlier poster stated that covering up is not feminist. I wanted to ask do you then think stripping off is feminist? So would you prefer Muslim women to adopt the approach of the feminists in groups like FEMEN and advocate for their rights topless? Or are the slut walks we saw in London what you want to see in the muslim world? Do muslim women need to support prostitution and pornography like some secular feminist do in order to be accepted by feminists. Because if that is feminism to you then you can keep it. I do not see this as being 'liberated' I see this as pandering even more to men's desires.

Now for those saying why are muslim men and women not expected to cover up to the same extent, well that one can be fired right back at you. Do men and women dress the same in this society? No. I remember an incident earlier last year when I went in to town and saw a group of 4 teens. Two males and two females. Though it was quite cold (I think it was February or March) the two young girls were wearing denim hot pants with no tights or leggings and skimpy tops. The boys on the other hand were wearing baggy jeans, jumpers and jackets. Now my problem was not with what the girls were wearing (Ive grown up in this society and believe in freedom of choice and expression so can comfortable reconcile myself with the fact that people are free to make their own choices about how they live their lives which some people here seem to still be struggling with) but with the disparity in the way the males were dressed compared to the females. Why is it that men in this society can dress comfortably and appropriately for the weather whilst women are under this pressure to always appear sexually attractive? I have a friend who used to work in a hospital on drug trials and she use to find it hilarious that the women who were undergoing the trials (normally students who were strapped for cash) would wake up a good hour or two before the men to do their hair and make up and 'get ready' (for what I dont know) whilst the men would spend maybe a half hour if that on their appearance and general grooming when they woke up, which meant they got to stay asleep longer. My point is this society places a greater pressure on women to look attractive (primarily to men) which in my opinion is more damaging then covering up as it exploits women's insecurities and lowers their self esteem by projecting an image of beauty which is not easily attainable. This leads to them causing actual harm to themselves e.g. anorexia, bulimia etc. Many people gave examples earlier of things like heels, use of sunbeds, shaving/waxing, plastic surgery, which they considered anti-feminist. However as these practices are more prevalent in this society then niqab wearing, dont you think that there should be a greater outcry about this instead of the general acceptance that these practices enjoy instead. Im just very cynical about the whole stance of being against niqab because its patriarchal (according to you not those who wear it) when people dont seem to be getting angry about practices that are much more damaging to women, particularly young girls.

Excellent post Peaceful!!!

"Do muslim women need to support prostitution and pornography like some secular feminist do in order to be accepted by feminists. Because if that is feminism to you then you can keep it. I do not see this as being 'liberated' I see this as pandering even more to men's desires"

You are making my point for me. People say that feminism is about women making choices. But a choice is not made feminist because a woman makes it, whether that is to use/make pornography, become a sex worker....... Or to cover. All of these choices are driven by the patriarchy. And all are therefore anti feminist choices- even if they are made by a woman.

Peacefuloptimist, I agree that the things you mention about western society are also anti-feminist. There should be an outcry.

This does not make covering a feminist act.

And I shed no tears, crocodile or otherwise over "these poor niqabis"

And there are racists on this thread- including the OP. They have not been challenged because I think a tacit agreement was come to to ignore them and carry on with the debate. It being taken as read that the main contributes to this thread are not racist, and are talking about the position of women in society and in Islam. An interesting and relevant topic.

'Both prostitution and covering up are acts subjugation and symbols of male authority'.

My problem with this is you are using your own cultural baggage in your interpretation of the reasons for covering up and are trying to shove it down the throats of muslim women. Why should we take any notice of that? Hijab and niqab are not acts of subjugation or symbols of male authority to most muslim women. They are religious symbols, they are symbols of identity. For most muslim women its about saying I am a muslim and I am proud. Thats why this issue is not that important to muslim women rights activist as it seems to be to Western secular feminists.

The women's rights movement in the Western world wanted a sexual revolution and all that entailed so you assume that all women's rights movements across the globe should seek a sexual revolution in their societies too. But thats not what everyone wants. What most muslim women want is dignity and protection for women enshrined in law. More economic freedom and access to education. Fairer family laws and greater representation. However some of these rights are even difficult for men in the muslim world to achieve let alone muslim women so the wider context of living under governments that are repressive and restrict freedoms for all their people (not just women) also needs to acknowledged. For example, how can you have a much needed debate about women playing a greater role in society when you do not even have freedom of expression? The debate about the rights of women is stifled by these despotic leaders who (are often propped up and supported by Western governments who also) really just want to maintain the status quo and their position of advantage whether they come from the secular or religious camps.

'I object to the concept of 'modesty', and am an atheist'

Object to it all you want thats your opinion. What does being opposed to modesty actually mean anyway. Does that mean that you are for arrogance and showing off what I would consider the opposites of modesty. I am not opposed to modesty and think its a very good quality to have. What I object to is the abuse of female sexuality and its commodification.

Martorana who then decides what is feminism and what isnt? You still havent answered whether you think uncovering is more feminist then covering. If it is why?

"What I object to is the abuse of female sexuality and its commodification."

Yes, I object to that too.

"Martorana who then decides what is feminism and what isnt? You still havent answered whether you think uncovering is more feminist then covering. If it is why?"

I don't understand your question. I think any choice that a woman makes that is informed by or which perpetuates the patriarchy is an anti feminist choice. I don't know what you mean by uncovering, I use the term "covering" to mean hijab, nicab or burkha- any prescriptive clothing of women for religious/cultural purposes which do not also apply to men.

'It perpetuates male power over society, and women who wrap up are complicit.'

This for me is the most dangerous idea expressed here as it is victim blaming. There are real issues to do with inequality and oppression of women in some parts of the world but that is not caused by women who choose to follow the tenets of Islam who are often the victims of this injustice. I AM NOT complicit because I love my religion and choose to practice it. I have heard this view expressed by some people who argued that muslim women who cover are valid targets of abuse from Islamophobes because by choosing not to apostate from their religion they are supporting extremists and are just as bad as the terrorists (as crazy as this sounds I have heard this link being made). You are using muslim women as tools in an ideological war they want no part of. Your opposition of niqab then smacks of wanting to punish muslim women for choosing the wrong side according to you rather then being about protecting them from having their choice not to cover taken away from them (which by the way no muslim women on this thread has supported either). I read an article in the Guardian once about difficulties muslim women faced in the work place which generated 1000+ comments most of which were saying that women who wear hijab (not even niqab) should not be employed because they are promoting patriarchy or some such nonsense. That is an extremely damaging and dangerous attitude to have as it makes muslim women more vulnerable to abuse by taking away their economic freedom.

I hope that makes sense. Im a bit sleepy so will come back again when Im feeling more lively.

"Object to it all you want thats your opinion. What does being opposed to modesty actually mean anyway. Does that mean that you are for arrogance and showing off what I would consider the opposites of modesty. I am not opposed to modesty and think its a very good quality to have. What I object to is the abuse of female sexuality and its commodification."

I object to the concept of modesty in appearance- apologies, I thought that was implicit given the context of the discussion.

Put simply, I don't feel women have anything to be modest about. If by 'arrogance and showing off' you mean women being completely comfortable with their bodies and not having to dress in order to appease or reject the male gaze, then I suppose I am in favour of it.

Repeatedly citing misogyny and injustices in Western society does not render covering feminist; it is possible to object to both.

A question was asked earlier about what outcome I and others wanted from this discussion- I'd like to ask a similar question to those who cover; given that most of us who object to covering are not in favour of legislating against it, is it important to you that we agree with your reasons for covering?

I would also like to know if anyone is able to answer my earlier question and explain the reasoning behind young children wearing hijab; am genuinely interested.

Martorana do you accept the actions of self proclaimed feminist groups like FEMEN with their topless jihad as feminist? Do you think that slut walks are pro feminist actions in the way you think niqab is anti feminist?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/19/victoria-coren-slutwalks-feminism-fashion

Tetherends I can only speak for myself. I started wearing hijab when I was 11. My parents did not want me to wear it as they thought I was too young and wore it very untidily and instead actively discouraged me but I cried until they let me. There wasn't one reason why I did it. I was proud to be a muslim and wanted to wear it to demonstrate that. I perceived it as an action that was pleasing to God. I hated doing my hair in the mornings before going to school and was happy that I would no longer have to endure the pain of having my frizzy hair brushed. I wanted to be like my older sister and mum. There is not one reason why anyone wears hijab or niqab whether they are an adult or child. The reasoning behind muslim women's dress choices can be complex or simple but they are normally very personal.

'Is it important to you that we agree with your reasons for covering?'

Again speaking for myself only I don't need you to agree with my reasons but I want you to accept that I do not agree with your interpretations and that I like the way I dress and that doesn't make me a bad person or anti feminist. I want you to accept that I will never agree with your negative interpretations of my religion and will actively promote hijab through my actions and speech. I want you to stop trying to convert me to your way of thinking I can think for myself and speak for myself. I am not oppressed. I want you to look at me and deal with me like an equal human being instead of a scared little creature that needs saving.

ITA with