women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

I don't think it is particulary helpful using labels like "feminist". Women are free to call themselves what they wish of course, but I prefer to think about deeds and acts rather then giving labels to people.

Women having freedoms is a feminist thing, whether the women taking the freedoms are "feminist" or not.

Women have the freedom to be a prostitute, although prostitution is not a feminist thing, it reiterates and promolgates male power.

Exactly like wearing the veil. Women have the freedom to wear it.

Both prostitution and covering up are acts subjugation and symbols of male authority.

"(No doubt your reaction to that will be something along the lines of 'good, we don't need feminists like you anyway'. "We" being women who are just like you, of course.)"

No. My reaction is to ask you what I've said to produce such a strong reaction. And to see if I can explain myself better because I obviously haven't made myself clear.

Martorana looking back on the thread I realise that it is not only you who has turned me away from the 'movement', and in fact you are not even the one who has displayed the most ignorance. I singled you out unnecessarily - I genuinely apologise for that.

But back to my initial point, it's the 'one rule fits all' thing about feminism that I see (mostly on MN, since I don't know many of this type of feminist in RL) that has turned me away. The idea that 'our way' is the right way because 'we' invented feminism. The 'poor oppressed Muslim women' pity. I hate it. I don't want to be a part of it, nor do I want to associate myself with women who are.

I am against oppression of any kind. I'm a human. I just don't agree that someone must be oppressed because The Feminists (the type that MN has showed me actually do exist) say they are.

I don't claim to speak for Martorana. I find myself frustrated by the insistent stream of posts claiming that feminists (in general or on this thread only, I'm not sure) want to ban the veil. I only recall a couple of posters saying that ... and they raised it as a point of discussion, not as the frothing demand some of the niqabis here persist in hearing.

In over 300 posts, there has been hardly any two-way discussion about veiling. There have been non-wearers putting forth feminist, social and cultural views, and wearers taking a stubborn & angry position. The latter have mostly pursued a highly polarised discourse, refuting an argument (feminists want to ban the niqab) that no feminists have made! Given that most of you've said British niqabis sometimes veil in public & sometimes not, this is hard to understand. A discussion on how you choose whether to wear it or not might, possibly, be a better starting point than this throwing of verbal missiles across a curtained border.

To re-state my own opinion so far: I would support a ban on face veiling in client-facing roles such as medical, caring & law enforcement, and other situations where the wearer may be perceived as holding power over her client. I'm concerned about burqa (in general) and face-covering (in particular) as highly visible symbols of a patriarchal culture. The latter is a feminist concern. Since I know some of the posters here are active feminists, it surprises me that they won't consider the issue from this point of view. How is veiling different, for you, from my leg-waxing while knowing I do so as a concession to 'western' patriarchy?

I think it's a mistake to assert that any recognition of covering as an anti-feminist act is an assumption of oppression. As has been said many times, women have the freedom to make choices, even anti-feminist ones.

I do not agree with the reasons given for covering, as I object to the concept of 'modesty', and am an atheist. This does not mean that I don't understand the reasons for covering, just that I do not agree with them. Nor does it mean that I wish to stop women who believe in different things to me exercising their rights to cover.

I would like to know the views of those who choose to cover on girls under 18 wearing hijab, and even niqab in some cases. I struggle to understand the thinking behind this.

So if those who object to the wearing of burkhas don't want to ban it, what do they want? Just to express their opinions on something that has nothing to do with them? Of course wearers are going to be "stubborn and angry", they are being told that what they are doing is wrong by women who have no right to do so.

I don't understand why you would need to express your opinion on something that is so personal, and yes, touchy, if you have no intention of actually changing anything. It just seems like an opportunity to lord what you perceive to be superiority over people because who you Do Feminism Right. (I say 'you' in the collective sense, by the way.)

I don't know why I wrote "who" in that last sentence. Ignore that..

Garlic to dismiss the voices of Muslim women who disagree with you as "stubborn and angry" is belittling and disrespectful.

You cannot claim to want to help those who you cannot even treat as an equal?

Or is it that we are the wrong kind of Muslim woman because we disagree with you? Would a good "oppressed" Muslim woman be ever so grateful for your concern?

Tethers as someone who supports women in their choice to cover, I can say that I also find children wearing covers odd as children are already modest. 18 is quite old to suggest beginning to cover though. Most are sexual before the age of 18. I was a mother before I was 18 (I'm neither Muslim nor married, by the way.)

If we are to look at covering as a way to be modest about your sexuality, you would do so when you are of a 'sexual' age. That obviously varies from person to person but would usually begin in your teens.

"So if those who object to the wearing of burkhas don't want to ban it, what do they want?"

I can't speak for others, but I want a discussion on the issue. I find it very interesting. Ultimately, I would like to see more women choosing not to cover; in the same way that I would like to see more women not shaving their legs and engaging in other acts which support patriarchy. Myself included.

"If we are to look at covering as a way to be modest about your sexuality, you would do so when you are of a 'sexual' age. That obviously varies from person to person but would usually begin in your teens."

Fair point about the age of sexual maturity, IHaveAaFifthSense; although I have to take issue with the notion of being modest about your sexuality at all, to be honest. Why is this necessary? Particularly with girls below the age of consent.

I have taught girls as young as twelve who have worn the niqab.

You see, I can't understand that. Covering and shaving legs are not on the same level. Shaving legs is something that we do. It is not deeply routed in history or in culture. Covering, on the other hand, is deeply routed in culture. A culture that is not yours to try and change.

What Tethers said just now.

Gosh, I fail to see how my depiction of one side of a debate as "a stubborn & angry position" reaches you as belittling Muslim women.

Posted too soon-

I also know many girls who wear hijab from the age of about four. I am genuinely open to understanding the reasoning for this, if anyone can explain; it seems that the reasons given for adult women choosing to cover are not be applicable to children.

As for your issue with the notion of being modest about sexuality, I understand that that is your view hence your standpoint on the issue of covering in the first place. But, as I said, it doesn't really matter whether you think it's necessary or not because it's not your culture to be concerned about.

Fifth - Do you, in any way, see your culture's disposition towards women as anti-feminist?

I wish people would stop endlessly referring to burqas. I'll bet what you are seeing is almost never a burqa.

Learn to tell the difference between a burqa, a hijab, a niqab, a chador, an abaya etc. Please.

Calling them all burqas is like calling all footwear Wellington boots.

I don't think that something being deeply rooted in culture means that there can be no objections to it, nor any meaningful discussion around it. FGM is an example of this- and, to be clear, I am in no way saying that covering is as harmful as FGM, I am just using it as an example of something which is deeply rooted in culture and should be challenged to illustrate my point.

Garlic, I presume that my culture is the same as yours. I am British. I am an atheist. Do you see our culture's disposition towards women as anti-feminist?

But tethers, you have just said it yourself. Covering isn't as harmful as FGM. Covering isn't harmful at all. Bullying and forcing of anything is harmful to women, yes. But covering doesn't = forced.

"Do you see our culture's disposition towards women as anti-feminist?"

I certainly do. This does not mean that covering is therefore not anti-feminist.

it doesn't really matter [what] you think ... because it's not your culture to be concerned about.

Should I not be concerned about FGM; should I not have agitated against the abuses of women & children in Ireland; should I stop funding women's reproductive health inititatives in Africa; should I not have cared about Catholic priests' child abuse; was it wrong of me to share the Saudi women's driving videos?

Even if your answer were, incredibly, Yes: actually this is my culture. I most certainly am entitled to opinions on how fellow citizens want to alter it.

I disagree that covering isn't harmful, IHave. Whilst it may not, for the most part, put women in danger of immediate physical harm, modesty it a harmful concept.

Why do you keep talking about abuse? About things which are harmful to women? Of course those are things that we should all be concerned about. Perhaps I should have been more specific in the post that you have quotes, I wrongly assumed that people would have the sense to realise that I am not talking about issues which are harmful. Covering, however, is not harmful. You (again, the collective) just think it is because it's not how your feminism works.