women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

Martorana I am aware of the ongoing arguments in feminism regarding dress, make-up, grooming, marriage and penetrative sex and whether they are feminist or not. However the statement that you made that my question refers to is this: "You can't call yourself a feminist".

What deems you qualified to make such statements? Also are you aware how damaging such statements are to Feminism?

"What deems you qualified to make such statements? Also are you aware how damaging such statements are to Feminism?"

Whwt deems me qualified? Understanding what feminism means and is. And what is damaging to feminism is the belief that feminism is solely about choice- that what feminism means is women being able to do anything- regardless of the impact on other women. Women should obviously be able to do whatever they want to under the law (a law which should be completely gender blind). What distinguishes a feminist is that she (or occasionally he) considers the impact of her choices on other women, and does not do anything which will have a negative effect, however small.

"What distinguishes a feminist is that she (or occasionally he) considers the impact of her choices on other women, and does not do anything which will have a negative effect, however small."

So you don't agree with women being SAHMs then?

I understand your issue with "choice" feminism, but I do not think one size fits all feminism, with all acts neatly categorised into feminist or anti-feminist is the solution.

There is also another problem. Who gets to decide what is feminist and what is not?

To which you may reply "Feminists do"

I have a feeling that Muslim women will never be considered feminist enough to have their opinions of what is feminist to them accepted.

So we will forever be dictated to by secular feminists who do not live our lives, do not understand us and think that our path to liberation is to shed our religious beliefs and practices and be exactly like them.

And this is freedom?

"So we will forever be dictated to by secular feminists who do not live our lives, do not understand us and think that our path to liberation is to shed our religious beliefs and practices and be exactly like them"

Actually goth, only one or two posters have advocated legislating against any form of religious dress.

For me, it's the old free speech analogy- I may not agree with what you wear, but I'll fight for your right to wear it.

I found this thread interesting as it enabled a discussion as to the thinking behind covering, as well as the arguments against. I agree with Martorana that covering can never be a feminist act, although I believe feminists can commit non-feminist acts and remain feminists provided that they recognise the impact their actions have and that they are a product of a patriarchal society.

I don't believe feminism is what people want it to be, and I would argue that it has commonly agreed values, just as Islam does. Feminism can only be 'interpreted' to a point before it stops being feminism and becomes something else.

"So we will forever be dictated to by secular feminists who do not live our lives, do not understand us and think that our path to liberation is to shed our religious beliefs and practices and be exactly like them."

No, I don't think that for a moment. But it is undeniable that covering cannot be described as a feminist act. That does not mean that I want covering to be banned- my dream is that women will gradually do it less and less until it is consigned to the mists of history.

Yes - it's like the body hair removal thing again, and wearing makeup. Do so when & if it suits you to conform for whatever reason - and, as a feminist, be aware that this is a patriarchy-friendly choice you're making. Come to your own terms with that.

But if you insist you're doing it purely for yourself, it's liberating, empowering, or similar claptrap which disregards the patriarchal 'rules' underlying your choice - you aren't a feminist.

I disagree that the niqab/communication issue is a red herring. As that is so interwoven with the patriarchal foundations of the custom, though, it's probably best to leave it aside.

Garlic- I think it is a red herring in the terms that it was introduced to this thread "I want to see people's pretty smiles". In terms of the anonymising of women it is crucial.

sorry this was way upthread but

Does that mean veiled women can only work from home errol? A modern large office simply could not function this way.

Of course that's not what I meant. I was disputing the idea that niquabs would necessarily make that much difference in an office, since people who telecommute can manage perfectly well without even eye contact - I've been doing it for years. We could do video conferencing - no-one has ever even suggested it thank goodness, I'd have to tidy up.

That does not mean that I want covering to be banned- my dream is that women will gradually do it less and less until it is consigned to the mists of history.

I think it's probably a bit like the fable of the sun and the wind... try to blow the man's coat off and he'll cling to it tighter. A ban might well be counterproductive, hardening attitudes and trapping indoors the most oppressed; the warmth of a tolerant (and hopefully as we all progress, genuinely less sexist/more feminist) society might coax more out into the sunlight.

How about a dream where every woman is judged by the content of her character rather than by any aspect whatsoever of her appearance or dress?

martorana yes news articles about how women are supposedly required to dress in Saudi and other countries are based on untruths. Contrary to popular belief there is no written law in Saudi regarding female dress at all, however there is a require to dress 'modestly' for both genders and this is interpreted differently in different areas. In Jeddah, you do find women wearing no hijab and say for example, traditional African outfits or a long jacket style open abaya with tight jeans and a blouse under and no-one bothers them. Some of these women are ex-pats but some are clearly Saudi. Mecca and Madinah are similar. In Riyadh things are more conservative but again there is no law requiring niqab or anything else, it's expected women there will wear an abaya but again this could be totally see through and not really cover anything. And the Eastern Province is more like Jeddah.

Iran I don't have personal links to there nor have I visited but currently the law there is that one must wear a lightweight jacket or tunic of any style or fit that comes to just above the knee and a token 'headscarf' which can be any size and any fabric, aside from that there are very few rules. Many of the scenes they show of swathes of chador-wearing women are a)really old library pictures or b)pictures from one of the religious centres of learning such as Qom that do not represent the dress of typical Iranians. One of my oldest friends is married to an Iranian and she has found that in Iran finding clothing that isn't butt tight and/or see through is pretty hard these days and that women who do wear looser, more covering clothing are seen as fanatics or weird. I've also visited Sudan another country with a supposed strict Islamic dress code, it has become more liberal since I visited but even back then you could wear a on-the-knee skirt and vest top with no hijab and no-one would say or do anything. Also many women there wear trousers, trouser suits are one of the most popular forms of dress for women there and jeans are popular too but obviously not comfortable in warm weather, and no-one bats an eyelid, so the allegations women were arrested purely for wearing trousers don't ring true to me. I have Sudanese friends who are no fans of the Sudanese regime and would never live there again for various reasons, but even they think these stories are nonsense and at best the women in question were wearing trousers but they were arrested for other public order offences xx

And it's easy to recognise people you know in niqab, firstly most women who wear niqab don't cover their eyes so that's one easy way, also voice, gait, mannerisms? I've never had any trouble recognising any of my friends and they haven't had any trouble recognising me. I actually have a problem remembering faces, always have since childhood, I can meet someone talk to them for ages and then a few months later I will meet them again and they will look familiar but I won't remember exactly who they are. It can be quite embarrassing sometimes. Weirdly if the same lady was in niqab both times I met them I will remember them a lot more. As for only working inside the home I know quite a few niqabis who work outside the home in various roles, personally I am a SAHM and home educate my kids think that's as valid a job as any personally xx

I hasten to add though matorana before I am jumped on that yes, despite the actual law or lack thereof I appreciate there are some places in Saudi, particularly in the Najd region, where the custom and cultural expectation is to wear niqab and the full abaya. This is true but it is due to regional customs more so than religion. On Saudi TV the female presenters usually wear western dress with a loose hijab or no hijab even if on location, and this is a government owned network xx

Mumof5- I have to bow to your superior knowledge. I do find it a little puzzling that your take on the situation is so at odds with everything else I have read, however. And even in your very positive account of how thing are, you still use expressions like women are "expected" to dress in particular ways-women "must" wear certain things........

Martorana feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the basis that the sexes are equal. So while you may judge particular acts as not being feminist acts, you are not qualified to tell anyone that they are not a feminist if they believe in equality.

Telling women who believe in equality that they can't identify as feminist because of a behaviour that you deem unfeminist is counter active and wrong. It pisses off the moderates and alienates the women that need feminist support the most.

By all means debate and discuss the issues that you feel are important within feminism. Learn and argue your point of view. But understand that discounting and alienating women who you judge to be lesser feminists is damaging to women and detrimental to feminism as a whole.

"Martorana feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the basis that the sexes are equal"

No, Dione. That is equalism. A position held by many- but which is not feminism.

martorana sigh. Whatever I say to you, it will be seized upon and twisted so honestly? I give up. Yes there are certain cultural norms in certain towns in certain Muslim countries so yes there are 'expectations', and in the case of Iran there is a minimum required level of dress however as I stated it isn't as the media portrays it to be at all. Also for the zillionth time there are 'musts' and 'expectations' regarding men's dress in those countries too, as mentioned in Riyadh Western dress for men is still not seen as socially acceptable and will get you manhandled and booted out of hotels and some public buildings. There are certain expectations about behaviour and dress in all countries, even the UK. If you had a t-shirt with a picture with a lewd and offensive image on it, and tried to go into the council offices or tesco, you'd be kicked out by security, but in another more liberal country, you'd be left alone but that country there may be something else that wouldn't be acceptable in dress xx

Martorana I think you need to check the dictionary.

Who decided every woman had to be a feminist? Martorama - you say it isn't a feminist act and. If someone covers they can't call themselves a feminist. So what - maybe they don't want to.

Mnmof5boys-I am sorry you think I am twisting your words.
Dione- you too.
Perfectly purple-absolutlly.

I totally support a woman's right to wear a burkha or veil. Freedom is paramount, and women should have the choice.
The circumstances surrounding those choices need some examination though, and there are many Muslim feminists protesting about being "forced" to veil up.

If we start to examine free choice though it can get complex. Women have the right to become a prostitute, a hard core porn star, have vast amounts of plastic surgery, her choice, her freedom.
Is it desirable though? These , like wearing a burka are questionable choices and ultimately done or worn to please men or religious leaders.
The veil is the physical symbol of female subjugation, and reinforces the dichotomy of virgin/whore.
Patriarchy is not just about men, it is about women willing to subjugate themselves to prop us an archaic system.
Many women have been raped, tortured, murdered (and blamed), for not wearing `suitable’ clothes.

atthestrokeoftwelve done ultimately to please men and religious leaders? Which ones? There is no clergy in Islam and most women I know who wear niqab, are single and their families are either indifferent or actively against the niqab. Yes this is in reference to Muslims in the west but as OP was referring to Muslims in the west than this is right on topic. With regard to your 'Muslim feminists are against covering' there are some of those who put themselves forward as 'Muslim spokespeople' who aren't at all practicing and have admitted privately or publically that they don't believe in certain tenets of the religion, yet at the same time they want to be seen as spokespeople for the 'Muslim community'. Many of them also fraternise with the far-right, which is worrying. I know plenty of 'worth their salt' Muslim feminists and they all support the right to wear niqab without reading weird things into why women wear it xx

"without reading weird things into why women wear it"

But these "weird things" may not be ultimately very good for women.

I'm sorry- I wasn't going to come back to this thread but I had to question this-

"Many of them also fraternise with the far-right, which is worrying. I know plenty of 'worth their salt' Muslim feminists and they all support the right to wear niqab without reading weird things into why women wear it"

"Many of them also fraternise with the far right" That is a very serious allegation. Evidence please. "Weird things"? really???? I find it extraordinary that you are not even prepared to consider the wider social, political and religious context of covering- and to consider looking at any such context "weird"

Do you know what, Martorana, if your aim was to turn women away from "feminism", you have succeeded in doing so for one woman on this thread.

I used to get so angry at people who turned their noses up at me for calling myself a feminist. In my view, they didn't understand what feminism is; they thought it was all about radical feminists who knew what worked for them and what any other woman (or man) does is wrong. I argued that view until I turned blue. However, you (and unfortunately, many other women I have had conversations like this with on MN) have done nothing but prove what others have said about feminists to be true.

If you are what a feminist should be, I hand back my self-proclaimed title as "Feminist". In fact, if this is what feminism is, I am certainly anti-feminism.

(No doubt your reaction to that will be something along the lines of 'good, we don't need feminists like you anyway'. "We" being women who are just like you, of course.)