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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

women wearing burqa, this riles me

459 replies

southeastastra · 04/04/2014 21:08

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

OP posts:
Lesleythegiraffe · 08/04/2014 19:01

Thanks for that information Mumof5boys

There are no niqab-wearers anywhere near where I live so I guess it's not a problem that will arise very often.

I don't know a lot about the reasons such things are worn, but I think sometimes the press sensationalise things and it's good to hear your side of things.

Sorry if that sounds rambling - I know what I mean to say but it's difficult to put into words! Smile

Mumof5boys81 · 08/04/2014 20:37

Martorana I do watch the news (thought you said you didn't get your info on this from news sources?) but I take it with a pinch of salt when it comes to issues regarding Muslim women. The media do have a certain narrative going on about Muslims (just as they do about people on benefits, the disabled, single mothers and the list goes on). I know many people personally who have been misrepresented by the print media and television, and when I was much younger I got asked to take part in some television documentaries on female converts to Islam and was even approached by the Daily Mail to take part in an article on the subject.

One of the documentary film makers said after they had interviewed me that I wasn't what they were looking for because, I didn't hold extreme views, wasn't angry and bitter and wasn't at loggerheads with my parents! Others I turned down because I felt they had an agenda and when I watched the programmes when they were aired, I was right. The Daily Mail, I turned down also as I had seen their articles on the topic and the misrepresentation therein was just crazy. One article had a picture of the featured convert in a flowery skirt and top with hijab and the the caption under that very picture said 'since converting, such and such has been forced to wear black flowing robes whenever she leaves her home'. The DM would not leave me alone though until I found them an alternative victim, sorry, subject for their article I did but I warned her the DM would misrepresent her, she didn't listen and the finished article was pretty nasty :( xx

Mumof5boys81 · 08/04/2014 20:45

Lesleythegiraffe thanks :) I live in a leafy suburb on the borders of London and Essex, so it's not an area where you see many niqabis or even visible Muslims in general. I do stick out a bit, especially as I'm built a bit like Miranda Hart and have a bit of an odd gait due to dyspraxia but I don't get any trouble and hope I am giving out a positive impression of Islam by being chatty and friendly to the locals xx

Martorana · 08/04/2014 22:19

Just to be clear, mumof5boys- you are saying that no woman is ever coerced into covering, and the stories in the media about what happens in, for example, Saudi Arabia are fabrications?

oohdaddypig · 08/04/2014 22:44

Genuine question - when wearing full coverage how do you recognise friends also in full cover? How do shopkeepers etc know it is you, and not another fully clad lady? Without wearing name badges? When I spot my friend in the street and wave and we might grab a coffee. If all women are veiled how on earth does this work in practice?

I was contemplating this at my work today. If everyone was fully veiled I am not sure my work - with its daily meetings - could function! It would be like a permanent conference call with everyone having to repeat their names before speaking.

Do working women wear the burka at work and if so, how does operate in practice, if there are lots?

This is a genuine practical question that only occurred to me today. A bit like at a masked ball where no one knows who anyone is.

DioneTheDiabolist · 08/04/2014 23:50

Martorana, Mumof5 has said nothing of the sort. She had spoken from her experience of Muslim women in the UK.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/04/2014 23:57

But certainly on this thread the issue of coercion has been studiously avoided.
The bit of NSS policy I chose to quote was part which explicitly covers this. That coercion either way is wrong; and that there should be punishment for anyone who forces someone to cover up against their will.

I am not up for banning covering- my hope is that women will increasingly choose not to do it. Because it is, as I have said, an anti feminist thing to do.

On that - I couldn't agree more.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/04/2014 00:04

I was contemplating this at my work today. If everyone was fully veiled I am not sure my work - with its daily meetings - could function! It would be like a permanent conference call with everyone having to repeat their names before speaking.

I work from home - I've actually met very few of my colleagues, not even seen photos of some. It doesn't matter at all. In conference calls it's easy enough to tell who is talking. Maybe this is one of the reasons why I really don't get people's angstiness about women in niqabs re communication.

Martorana · 09/04/2014 00:50

I'm sure mumof5 has no need of you to speak for her, Dione. I will wait for her reply.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/04/2014 01:30

I'm sure she doesn't Martorana, however you seem to have missed her answer. I was simply pointing that out to you to save you the bother of asking it again.Smile

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/04/2014 01:33

And Martorana, I asked you a question earlier that you have not yet answered. Did you miss it? Do I need to ask it again?

oohdaddypig · 09/04/2014 04:50

Thanks garlic. Interesting about perfume/eyes etc. just makes me scratch my head a bit though and think - even more so - how utterly bizarre we have to resort to perfume to define ourselves lest someone would think us immodest if we show our face?

Does that mean veiled women can only work from home errol? A modern large office simply could not function this way.

Sadly this thread has entrenched my views even more. For me this is nothing about faith - and everything about the fact we are social creatures living and working in a society of verbal and non verbal communication. it's bonkers and totally unnecessary to cover one's face.

How do I form a rapport or friendship with someone who is behind a mask? Whose smiles I cannot see, nor frowns nor pain? We have all been given the most wonderful faces with senses to use and enjoy. How could anyone want to hide that?

oohdaddypig · 09/04/2014 04:56

Someone up thread also mentioned their vit D deficiency despite sitting in the sun first thing. I have been meaning to post back to say Please consider getting exposure to midday sun - even a few minutes before you burn - on your arms/legs. There is a lot online about this. Vit D supplements alone aren't sufficient. In our country it's only midday sun that can provide the intensity needed to get levels up but you don't need to be out very long to achieve it. It's virtually impossible to get vit D3 from food in adequate levels.

Signing off now. This thread makes me sad :(

atthestrokeoftwelve · 09/04/2014 07:49

I saw a woman trying to eat a plate of pasta in a restaurant wearing a niqab, it didn't look very easy at all, she was slipping up bits of food underneath her veil, there must have been a heck of a mess under there as she struggled to find her mouth.

Other women sitting around her were wearing vest tops and shorts, tucking into their spaghetti. It all seemed very surreal.

sashh · 09/04/2014 08:52

oohdaddypig

Thanks for your concern, my GP keeps an eye on things, my supplements are on prescription and my levels are normal now.

I have seen a relative with skin cancer, I'd rather get my Vit D supplements and not burn.

But again thank you for your concern for a complete stranger.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 09/04/2014 08:59

Modest amounts of sunlight decrease our risk of skin cancer however. Dietary supplements are a poor subsitute.

Martorana · 09/04/2014 09:19

Dione- I missed your question on and don't feel inclined to search back. But is assume that it was something like "who are you to tell women what they can wear?" (If it wasn't, I apologize and please ask me whatever it was.)

Anyway to answer that one. I am not telling women what to wear. I am saying that if they choose to cover they are making an anti feminist choice.

I am happy to explain why this is so, but I haven't got time this morning. Happy to do so later.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/04/2014 09:31

No, that wasn't my question Martorana. Maybe someone else asked you that, but it wasn't me.

My question was posted at 12:15 on Tuesday and is on page 9 of the thread. I look forward to your answer.

BreakingDad77 · 09/04/2014 09:37

The problem is that burqa's and niquabs are (a man's no doubt) interpretation it doesn't say anything about wearing black head to toe or covering face, the Koran talks of 'dressing modestly'. When I was in Bahrain, Qatar, UAforums had a mix, where both the man wearing the full thobes so you only see his face and her face it makes sense. I call BS where he is in tank top and shirts and she bagged up.
Chatting on forums, in these countries, some of the women claim they do it to show there faith, and compare it to the nuns 'habit' others though say things like they 'don't have to cover up but they choose to'. Though you read into this as coercion from other women ie your a slut and or disrespecting your family. In Dubai we saw group girls in restaurant all dressed normally and then when they left by the time they got to the bottom of stairs to entrance they all had thrown on there robes.

In Qatar it was funny as some Arab women would think the western women in her baggy shapeless shorts, sandals, and tank tops that she wears because it's hot was slutty. Bizarrely they would have a loose burqa on top of what you could easily see as skyhigh platform high heel shoes, skinny jeans, full nails, ott face make up. Just that black cloak is the magic boundary from slut to respectful.

Women though are seen to be pushing boundaries with embroided and more colour in ME.

BreakingDad77 · 09/04/2014 10:55

We had some interesting times in Qatar with DW. It can though be difficult often in ME to know unless you specifically talk to people where they are from as people in the three I worked in were from arab countries all around the world.

DW worked at a nursery (she has quite dark hair and pale complexion£, a father came storming in "why is their an arab girl teaching my child not wearing headscarf" (Phillipino staff and eastern European staff did not wear head scarfs) For some bizarre reason the dad was placated by showing DW's passport that she was british and hence not a muslim Confused

DW said while in a toilet some crotchety lady spat near here while shouting at her and pointing to her head in Arabic, but when DW spoke the women seem to then backtrack as if it was all some misunderstanding.

One of the phillipino staff at the nursery was a photographer and they went to a local wedding which was fascinating as for parts of the ceremony the men and women split (other religions do this too) but after splitting the women all took off there burqas and had fabulous dresses on, very daring slits up the side, literally just covering the nipple then plunging all the way down the back and of course made up like movie stars. Its believed there is some competition to outdo each other.

DW bought a nice embroided one while we were in Bahrain but barely wore it, except when she wasn't bother about changing out from jim jams to nip to the shop. though in Qatar she wore it more as we felt more eyes burning on us/being gawped at. Holding hands will get you dirty looks and definitely no kissing hugs publicly - roll on the World cup lol.

Interesting though while in her Burqa she got discounts in shops, and we had to giggle in one shop as the assistant said very slowly "dooo yoooouuu neeeed aaa baaaaggg" as if english wasn't her first language.

As a man you can probably guess I never had any problems in these countries.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/04/2014 11:04

Very interesting posts Breaking, which I think go to prove the old saying "you can't judge a book by it's cover".Smile

I do think that the attitude of the OP stems from racism. However contributions from other posters seem to adhere to the stereotyping in the media of women who cover as oppressed little mice and men as oppressive misogynistic abusers. The reality is of course that people are people, and as I get older, meet more people and gain more experience I am much less likely to make assumptions based on outward appearances.

GarlicAprilShowers · 09/04/2014 11:37

Funny, Dione, that's exactly what abused women say before they realise their partner has played them: "I'm not some timid victim, I'm assertive etc etc." We help them by showing them the mechanisms of abuse. The aim of every abuser - individual or generic - is to finesse the target(s) into total compliance, so they effectively abuse themselves.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/04/2014 11:55

That's exactly what I was thinking about when I posted Garlic. My work brings me into more contact than most with abused women. But you only need to spend a couple of hours on MN to see that class, colour, income and indeed style of dress are no indicator of what goes on within relationships and behind closed doors.Sad

As I've said the more I learn, the less likely I am to be influenced by knee jerk reactions, instant judgements and falling for BS stereotypes.

Martorana · 09/04/2014 14:41

"She is in her late sixties and wouldn't say that a woman is not a feminist because she makes decisions regarding dress or personal grooming for herself. Martorana what deems you qualified to make such statements."

Oh,that question. I ignored it because I have answered it several times already on this thread. There are actions that are anti feminist. And it doesn't matter whether the person performing that action has chosen freely to do so, or is a woman or even a feminist. Th action itself cannot be anything but anti feminist. And covering is an example of such an action. It stems from a deeply patriarchal culture. It characterises women as something which needs to be protected by being hidden. It suggests that women should take responsibility for the emotions and actions of men. It anonymises women- removing them from public discourse. And, protestations to the contrary aside, in some parts of the world is is imposed on women by a law which impacts on women disproportionately.

One of the problems with this debate is the constant undercurrent of racism- which I am pleased to see we are managing to ignore. Another is the issue of practicality- which is frankly irrelevant. Nobody suggests a bearded man should shave because it would make it easier for him to eat spaghetti. And people's discomfiture- again irrelevant. If you don't like talking to covered women, tough shit- get over yourself.

But an open and honest debate about what covering means to women and to society and to feminism- now that is vital.

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