women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

To a degree, Cote; using another extreme example, does a government have the right to commit atrocities against its own people simply because they are within the right geographical borders?

I don't think France have got this right at all.

that a country has the right to say what sort of behaviour is acceptable within its borders.

As tethers says, up to a point... well, I sincerely hope that the UK does firm up what is acceptable within its borders and does so along the lines of the NSS policy.

tether - By definition, a state has legitimate right to use force within its borders which it wields with police, physical confinement in prisons etc.

The last decade or so saw the rise of the concept of a state's responsibility to protect people within its borders from mass atrocities. There is some interesting food for thought in this link by Oxford Journals' Human Rights Law Review.

Did that answer your question?

I hope nobody here is saying the burqa ban is a mass atrocity, in any case.

I believe that principle protects people's right to life (i.e. not being massacred en masse) rather than the "right" to dress however you like in public.

"I hope nobody here is saying the burqa ban is a mass atrocity, in any case."

Of course not. Hence my using the phrase 'another extreme example', lest confusion arose.

That link is interesting, thank you. Although my question was clearly rhetorical.

Would you apply that to countries like Iran who were developed in all the ways you describe and introduced dress codes in the late 20th century?

Please could the people in support of women covering themselves confirm that women are never coerced, either overtly or covertly, to cover, and are never punished if they don't. And please could they also confirm that the admonition to modesty is taken as seriously by/for men as it is by/for women.

Martorana no one will confirm that women are never coerced, either overtly or covertly, to cover because that confirmation would be a lie.

No one is claiming that there aren't women who aren't forced into covering, nor is anyone claiming that forcing is acceptable. However, it isn't the case that all women are forced into covering any more than it is the case that all women who wear short skirts are forced to.

By claiming that women wearing burkhas were all forced into it is extremely patronising to the hundreds of thousands of women who wear burkhas because of their own beliefs and their own values. (Values which many Western women disagree with, of course. But they are not their values to try and put a stop to.)

martorana I am not in 'support' of women covering themselves but i think you shouldn't tell women they can't. If you see my previous post I started it by saying of course some muslim women are forced to cover up. Telling women they can't cover/wear what they want is as bad as telling them what the must wear.

It would be ridiculous to say that all women who cover are forced into it. And nobody, as far as I know has. But certainly on this thread the issue of coercion has been studiously avoided.

And I am not saying that anyone should dictate what women- or anyone else wears. But there is more to covering than simple personal choice. Everything we do has an impact on other people. And if middle class educated Western woman choose to cover it adds legitimacy to those who choose to impose covering on other women. I am not up for banning covering- my hope is that women will increasingly choose not to do it. Because it is, as I have said, an anti feminist thing to do.

martorana it hasn't been avoided, I have responded to you on my part and stated that I have never come across any women forced to cover whether in hijab or niqab, and I have met thousands of Muslim women and in the past been involved in community work and activism. However I have met women who have been forced to abandon hijab and niqab under the threat of violence or emotional abuse or being completely disowned by their families and sometimes the wider community. Where I used to live, I had an Asian friend who wanted to wear hijab properly and not just a loose scarf halfway on her head as was the norm in that community, but she knew she would be ostracised and called a 'Wahhabi' if she did.

I also suggested the reason that men take Islamic dress codes less seriously on the whole isn't because 'Islam' takes them less seriously, but because men tend to be less religious than women, in my experience. I also cited cases where men have been subject to punishment or ejection from public buildings for not dressing appropriately in countries such as Saudi or Iran. However in the west and indeed most Muslim countries how a Muslim dresses or behaves is a matter of personal conscience and there are no 'morality police' to enforce anything. Islamic practices are in general a matter of personal conscience and personal responsibility which for some reason is something that many people find hard to grasp. Xx

I am not against or for wearing burkhas, but...
The argument "everyone is free to wear what they want" does not work for me.
We could be naked but we are not because there are socially accepted norms not to be naked (may be fine in a remote jungle island).
The same way, I expect if you migrate into another country, you adapt to that country's culture by wearing/not wearing certain clothes.

Will we wear a strapless dress in Arab countries - NO.

Do women in burkha's make me uncomfortable because I cannot see their face? YES.

I would not have a rant at such woman, but certainly I am happy to rant here.

Thanks for the Wiki link, crescent, but I'm aware of the Iranian revolution.

I'd like to know how you view the dress code in Iran, given that it does not fit your description of pre-industrialised countries.

Mumof5boys- you say you have never met anyone coerced into covering. Are you saying therefore that it never happens?

Just checking- we have all decided to ignore the racists, rather than engage with them, haven't we?

I'd say so, yes.

Shame to spoil what has thus far been a very civil and informative debate.

Not that I wear either a burqa or a motorcycle helmet, but it does annoy me when I walk into the local petrol station and there's a sign on the door that says "Please remove your motorcycle helmet before entering the shop."

It should also be the same for burqa wearing.

For safety reasos, you mean?

^reasons

Martorana people can only speak from their own knowledge or experience. I cannot claim to speak for the experiences of ALL Muslim women worldwide, nor did I ever try to. You want assurances that are impossible for anyone to give. I have heard this argument before that women who live in the west by wearing certain garments are somehow letting down those that are rumoured to have been forced to, in other countries and therefore should be martyrs and sacrifice the right they have in the west to wear what they like, out of principle. It's ludicrous! Also you still haven't addressed what is a very real problem, women being bullied into NOT covering. I will assume you think this is 'ok' as you consistently dodge the issue? Oh sorry I forgot it's ok for you to dodge issues, just not the Muslim women here xx

Lesleythegiraffe when in banks (I don't go into petrol station shops as I don't drive-not for any religious reasons I hasten to add), I do lift up my niqab even if there are men there. I don't want anyone to feel insecure or unsafe. Similarly I do the same the whole time if going through an airport, though it's complete and utter rubbish that Muslim women wearing veils aren't checked, they are, and they tend to be subject to additional checks. Even before I wore niqab I was frisked every time I went through security. Some other veil wearing women I know do the same whereas others would avoid situations where they would have to lift the niqab as much as they are able and then just lift it for the minimal time. I don't know anyone who asks for 'special treatment' Xx

I would think it outrageous if a woman was bullied out of covering. But I can only speak from my own experience- and I have never heard of this happening. Just as you have never heard of women being coerced into covering. Presumably you don't watch the news?