women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

I am sorry you feel like that, crescentmoon- and there are racist arseholes on this thread. But obviously it is more complex than "I want to cover, so nobody should question or discuss my choice"? Everything we do has an impact on others. And while covering for a middle class educated woman in the west is one sort of choice, it is very different in other parts of the world, surely? Or am I wrong about that, and there is never coercion or punishment? And I'm not talking about individuals coercing other individuals, but governments and societies.

It seems to me that the concerns about face-to-face communication though they may be held very sincerely are really excuses.

Excuses for what exactly?

Blindness as a comparison is odd. How many people choose to be blind? How many blind people do not acknowledge that their blindness causes challenges?

I haven't anything about whether the life women in burqas are living are fulfilling to them or not.

Feel free to be astonished, though.

I'm astonished that you are astonished. Is this the first time you are told that a segregated life hidden away from society is a half-life?

No interaction with half of humankind (males), hidden away, impossible to participate in group activities or the vast majority of sports, always worrying that the very sight of a bit of your skin might drive a male to lust, stripped of your very identity with even your face covered.

Surely "half-life" is a rather fitting description.

But obviously it is more complex than "I want to cover, so nobody should question or discuss my choice"? Everything we do has an impact on others.

This.

It is helpful to everyone if a straightforward conversation can take place.

Supporting women to wear burkhas is not supporting feminism thought. The wearing if burkhas is firmly in the patrichial camp for me.
Just because women themselves "choose" to wear burkhas does not make that a femisnist choice.

Women choose to perform fgm on their daughters- that doesn't make it a feminist act either.

I'm with the National Secular Society on this one. If you care to read their policy, it covers the salient points I think. If you CBA to read the whole thing, here's an extract:

'The NSS sees as unjust and paradoxical, any attempt to promote freedom for women by limiting their freedom to dress and practice their religion in the way that they choose. Forcing a woman not to wear a burka or niqab contravenes a woman's right to choose in the same way that forcing her to wear one does; both cases represent an attempt to control the woman and dictate how she should express herself.

A law which prohibits the burka and niqab also punishes the very women society is seeking to liberate. The NSS takes the position that if a woman is being forced to wear the burka or niqab, the person forcing her to do so should be punished – not the victim of that enforcement

Good points errol

No, choosing to wear a burkha isn't necessarily a feminist act. Choosing to brush your hair isn't necessarily a feminist act either. It doesn't mean that you can't be a feminist if you do choose to wear a burkha any more than you can't be a feminist if you do choose to brush your hair (or any other act that you don't necessarily have to do).

I am so so so sick to death of women who tell other women that they are not feminists when said woman clearly has arguments to say otherwise.

Even more so, I am sick of Western society in general dictating what is right and wrong for other cultures. You don't own half of the world anymore. Deal with it.

My DA is a feminist academic and international activist for women's rights. The first thing she teaches Western students and volunteers is: check your own privilege. As there is no quicker way to reinforce colonial, patriarchal privilege than by not listening to the women you are supposed to be trying to help.

She is in her late sixties and wouldn't say that a woman is not a feminist because she makes decisions regarding dress or personal grooming for herself. Martorana what deems you qualified to make such statements.

Nobody is saying that a burqa wearer is not a feminist; just that covering is not a feminist choice.

I consider myself a feminist yet shave my legs & wear make-up, neither of which could be described as a feminist choice. However, I recognise that the choices I am making do not support the feminist cause, and maintain a patriarchal society. I do not feel great about this, but balance my choices against the (perceived or actual) reactions I would get if I stopped doing this.

I have said repeatedly that I do not support a ban on any religious clothing, for precisely the reasons cited by the NSS; however, I fundamentally disagree with the reasons for covering, and the concept of 'modesty' in general. As an atheist, what is written in the Qu'aran does not alter my view. To assume any objections to covering stem from ignorance of the reasons for doing so is to stifle debate.

Having said that, I think this has been a very interesting thread which has managed to, for the most part, avoid the usual knee-jerk reactions.

"I am sick of Western society in general dictating what is right and wrong for other cultures. You don't own half of the world anymore."

This is about a Western society asserting what is right and wrong in their own country, not halfway around the world in a place they don't own anymore.

Cote There are people from "halfway around the world" living in the West because of Western colonisation. If Europeans don't like the way that people from other cultures live in "their country", that's tough shit. What do you expect people to do, drop everything from their own cultures to suit the Europeans that object to it? Haven't they already taken enough?

"Haven't they already taken enough?"

Putting aside the world's smallest violin for a second...

A country has the right to decide how people will live within its borders. That is how Saudi Arabia, for example, dictates how women have to dress, what they can and can't do.

This has nothing to do with how those people ended up within those borders or any other sob story.

Yes, play the world's smallest violin for the world's smallest problems, Cote. Sob stories of how the West colonised so many countries are so pathetic, right? Who actually gives a shit? Let's all eye-roll together. Silly people with huge chips on their shoulders. Of course we should be able to tell them what's right and wrong, we have been doing so for years!

I would also say an incredibly small number of women covering their faces is a very small problem and yet it seems to be a source of endless hand-wringing and predictions of societal doom.

Cote - you can't keep citing France as a good example. In the UK, there would be widespread horror at a party like Front National being successful. Neither is it a choice between being like Saudi Arabia, or being like France.

I would completely agree with the policy Errol cited, women should neither be force to wear or forced not to wear religious clothing.

The problem with sob stories on how the West colonised other places is that they are entirely irrelevant to this thread.

You seem to care a lot. Why don't you start your own thread on that subject?

That was to Ihavea, by the way.

Of course it is relevant to this thread. Other posters (possibly you, Cote, I can't actually remember nor can I be arsed to check), spoke of women not being able to be feminists if they wear burkhas. This is an example of people from the West telling others what they can and can't do. A result of people from the West ruling. How are the two not interlinked?

I have no reason to start another thread when there is already a conversation about it right here. If you wish to start a thread to tell people that they should all live like white Western Europeans, feel free to do so. I'll pull out a huge violin for you when you're shut down.

Gosh - re "I would also say an incredibly small number of women covering their faces is a very small problem and yet it seems to be a source of endless hand-wringing and predictions of societal doom."

It doesn't really matter how small the numbers are when the mentality is unacceptable to the vast majority.

What do you think would happen if a very small group of people decided to live as cannibals? Or necrophiliacs? (I'm giving extreme examples to illustrate the point that the numbers don't matter) Do you think the society at large would say "Oh no worries, they are only about 100 people"? Or would there be outrage?

"In the UK, there would be widespread horror at a party like Front National being successful"

I suppose your understanding of FN's increased votes in the recent election is that it must mean France is a racist place. It was widespread dissatisfaction with Hollande and his party PS that drove this election, not racism. And in any case, despite the emphasis of newspapers on FN, the conservatives (UMP) was the winner of the recent municipal elections. See here (at least the graphs at the top, even if you can't get Google translate to give you a meaningful translation). FN won about 10 towns. UMP won over a hundred.

There has been quite extensive analysis of how & why people voted for FN this time, and the vast majority were found to be just dissatisfied with PS & UMP and "Let's give those other guys a chance". Hollande has proven himself to be so incredibly incompetent that this is not actually very surprising, unfortunately.

That is how Saudi Arabia, for example, dictates how women have to dress, what they can and can't do.
And France, ditto.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The Saudis are wrong (and should be told so); the French are wrong on this (and should be told so).

crescent - "niqab only became an issue in this country because of 'goings on' halfway around the world"

Do you mean the numbers increased as people turned to religion (on both sides) and became more conservative after 9/11?

"happy independent veiled women here are an inconvenient truth to the narrative"

That some of the practitioners are happy doesn't mean the practice needs to be accepted and tolerated.

"what hidden away? werent veiled women walking around on the streets of paris and other cities, going about their days and minding their own business?"

Hidden away behind the black curtains they walk around it. You know exactly what I meant.

"you are speaking on behalf of the capitalist patriarchy here not the sisterhood"

Er... I don't know a 'patriarchy' and I am speaking for myself only. As for 'sisterhood' - You talk about only Muslim women when you say 'my sisters', don't you?

"would you assume of a woman who is a SAHM that she lives a half life, not a full life?"

A SAHM can work from home, she can volunteer, she can do anything she likes. That is not the case with a woman who is restricted until the end of her life.

"why not try to save women from the greater, relentless pressure to always look sexually ready and available?"

I don't feel that pressure and never have. Especially the "available" part.

that we all collectively try to fend off in our own ways?

"why not save women from being used by the media to tempt men to buy products"

Are we trying to change human nature? If millennia of evolution have led to men desiring to be attractive to women and buy products they think will achieve that (according to their advertisement)... what exactly are you against here?

"you are pro porn cote so you are obviously ok with women objectifying and debasing themselves to perform for the male gaze"

I have rarely watched porn in the past but I don't now. I certainly wouldn't call myself "pro porn" - as in, claiming it's a wonderful thing and promoting it for everyone's use at all times. Not sure what you meant by that.

Errol - You can try to tell Saudi & France that they are wrong (good luck with that) but the point I'm making is that a country has the right to say what sort of behaviour is acceptable within its borders.

Cote, there is clearly no point in arguing this with you. You firmly believe that you (and France) are right and everyone else (mainly burkha wearing female Muslims) are wrong.

You can't reason with the unreasonable.

I'm not sure how helpful it is to try to discuss veiling only in a global context.

There are many many behaviours that are inimical to one culture but inherent to another. The local context has to be highly relevant.

The cultural meaning of covering one's face is entirely different in the UK as compared to other countries. The abomination that was colonialism doesn't erase thousands of years of UK culture.

It is the friction where two cultures rub against each other that is relevant surely not the 'rights' of individuals concerned.