Christian Bible Study

[HoneyandRum]

Welcome everyone to Christian Bible Study week 1. For convenience we are using the Lectionary Gospel reading for each Sunday. Our reading this week is Luke 2:22-40. For anyone without a bible here is the reading, (quite long):

"And when the day came for them to be purified in keeping with the Law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord - observing what is written in the Law of the Lord: Every first-born male must be consecrated to the Lord - and also to offer in sacrifice, in accordance with what is prescribed in the Law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. Now in Jerusalem there was a man named Simeon. He was an upright and devout man; he looked forward to the restoration of Israel and the Holy Spirit rested on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death until he had set eyes on the Christ of the Lord. Prompted by the Spirit he came to the Temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the Law required, he took him into his arms and blessed God; and he said:

Now, Master, you are letting your servant go in peace as you promised;
for my eyes have seen the salvation
which you have made ready in the sight of the nations;
a light of revelation for the gentiles and glory for your people Israel.

As the child's father and mother were wondering at the things that were being said about him, Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, 'Look, he is destined to be a sign that is opposed - and a sword will pierce your soul too - so that the secret thoughts of many may be laid bare.'

There was a prophetess, too, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was well on in years. Her days of girlhood over, she had been married for seven years before becoming a widow. She was now eighty-four years old and never left the Temple, serving God night and day with fasting and prayer. She came up just at that moment and began to praise God; and she spoke of the child to all who looked forward to the deliverance of Jerusalem.

When they had done everything the Law of the Lord required, they went back to Gaililee, to their own town of Nazareth. And as the child grew to maturity, he was filled with wisdom; and God's favour was with him."

(This quote is from The New Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation widely used in English speaking countries. If you have a different translation you would like to post please do, with details of the translation you are using.)

To fellow Christians: This is a place of fellowship, encouragement, gentleness and understanding as sisters and brothers in Christ. To help each other grow in faith, understanding of the scriptures and of each other's faith traditions in a respectful and loving manner.

Please share your reflections, inspirations, thoughts, questions, musings and findings from study here.

Shout out to those who dropped by showing interest in a Bible Study:
niminypiminy, wolfiefan, Dogonabeanbag, StressedHEmum, minniemagoo, lostblonde86, thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts, madhairday, thanksamillion, Loobingler, Tuo, Gingerdodger, ZingSweetApple, Cloutiedumpling, Gingercurl and AMumInScotland !

It also has just struck me how Jesus making the paste of his saliva and mud mirrors Genesis and God forming Adam. This highlights Jesus being there from the very beginning, in God.

Although of course the blind man himself goes to wash, which shows he has to have some Faith (shown in his actions) in what Jesus is telling him to do.

I always notice that about this passage, capsium, the disciples wanting to blame someone for this man's disability. You would have thought, given Jesus' response, that no one would say such things today, right? It's a shame I've been told that my sickness is down to sin in my life/not enough faith/unconfessed sin of ancestors/insert other blame here. This passage always makes me smile - no reason, says Jesus, but what it will do is show the glory of God. I like that. I hope that my life, with all the uselessness people think it must be, has purpose for the glory of God.

The sabbath thing is great as well. Jesus knew that tradition was crucial to these people, and had come to matter more than God, actually, in many cases. He shattered all of this in his actions, showing what mattered most. It's hard for us to get our heads round the whole sabbath thing, but it was incredibly important, part of their identity. For Jesus to do this was no small thing. it was a statement of intent and a statement of identity. He was saying that he actually had the authority to change set in stone laws, to re-examine what sabbath was and change the meaning of it. Not to break the sabbath in true meaning of what God intended it to be, but to re introduce what it was and meant. He was showing it meant that God wanted people to be whole - on the sabbath and all the time, and that God's saving work could be done even when we were commanded to rest. That's God's saving and redeeming power is at work within us all the time, regardless of what we do and when we do it. That God's work wasn't limited to 6 days, and that God's rest meant more than rest as they defined it then.

A lot of waffle I know, but just thinking aloud...

Really loved this passage it resonated on so many levels.

The first thing that struck me is that over the past few readings is how out there Jesus was mixing with such a wide variety of individuals. It reminds me of something Pope Francis said about members of the church not just feeding the sheep but smelling of the sheep.

Jesus has inspired such a simple faith in the blind man just as he did the woman at the well. I think it was niminy (but can't check as its on the previous page) who noted this and how this can be so different to the really complex arguments that we get drawn into (often on here!). I remember on a thread sometime ago that someone said, in support of their argument that people with faith are somehow less intelligent, that they had seen a study that Christians had a lower IQ or had had less education levels. My response at the time was that, even if true, Jesus had been quite clear that he was there for the poor, the lonely, the dispossessed so in many ways that would accord that people had less access to education. I don't think that answer elicited any response at the time!

The other bit that just resonated currently was hearing someone in our family (which has been suddenly hit with more than our fair share of bad news) say 'what have we done to deserve this?' Jesus was clear that the man's blindness wasn't a punishment for his our his father's sins but was an enabler to see the glory of God, personally taking strength from that at the moment.

My final thought is just that Jesus just doesn't care about the rules. Doesn't care about healing on the Sabbath he just sees the need to celebrate and share the glory of God. Lots that the modern church and we all can take from that. God is about love not petty rules.

I will have to back and re read the passage as there is much in it.

Also just thought how Jesus mixing His saliva with the mud could be symbolic of how through relationship with Chris, us being the mud in this instance, leads us to being washed clean and healed.

mhd Your writing makes sense to me, not waffle at all. I think blaming people for illnesses etc seems to be a thing some people just do, whether they are viewing this from what they consider to be religious perspective or just more conventionally from a medical view point. How many times is there speak of the 'undeserving' and 'deserving' sick or poor. It is a horrible thing, I am glad this is not what Jesus focuses on and neither should we.

ginger I totally understand what you mean about people seeming Christian belief is madness (some suggesting serious dysfunctionality) or that you are not very intelligent! I think their train of thought, in this instance, has very nasty implications and it is not one I really like to entertain. I am glad Christ takes us as we are, no job too big or small, so to speak and make us whole, fulfilled.

^Christ not Chris! Typo.

arf at Relationship with Chris

So true about all the rhetoric to do with deserving/undeserving poor, whether we should 'waste resources' on people who have 'brought it on themselves' through whichever way not looking at you Daily Mail oh no -not even a hint of grace. That's what I love about God, grace poured out for all. So very wonderful.

I had a friend who I thought of as a really close friend, who decided she didn't want to be friends with me anymore because I wasn't 'pressing in hard enough' for healing. It wasn't said this clearly but the gist was there and it was obvious from her actions from then on. :(

Interesting about the whole Jesus came for the disadvantaged/poor/weak etc. So many passages about this - his power is made perfect in our weakness; he has chosen the weakness of the world to shame that which is strong, the foolishness to shame the wise; the message of the cross is foolishness to the lost but the power of salvation to those who believe; etc etc. Intelligence and rationalisation do not seem to be at the top of God's priority list.

It's not surprising that people assumed either the blind man or his parents had sinned and that's why he was born blind - the Pharisees show later on that this is the doggerel they had been teaching as they expel the now healed man from the synagogue saying he was born in sin. They don't seem to have taken on board that we are all sinners - yet we aren't all born blind! Like others, I like that the simple truth he states sets him free. The man's parents hedge their bets. They worry what will happen to them as a result of what they say. How I recognise that human failing! Since becoming a believer I'm experiencing over and over again how much simpler life is if you stick to the truth.

Where we are there is still a residual idea that people with disabilities are being punished for something. It's such a corrosive idea and yet here we see Jesus totally dismissing it.

Where are you, thanksamillion? I remember Glenn Hoddle having to resign as manager of England's football team after voicing similar beliefs.

I'm in Moldova. Until very recently all children with disabilities were sent away to residential homes as the parents were told that they would have a better life there (they didn't) and attitudes are slow to change. But there was definitely also a shame element and a feeling that the parents must be being punished for something

That's so very sad milly and more prevalent in many areas than we would like to think.

I think some western Christians still think this way - hence the whole 'what is the unconfessed sin in your life' etc etc.

dh visits East Africa often and there is some of this kind of thinking there too. So sad. Love that Jesus came in yet again and blew away the cobwebs on this type of thinking. love Jesus :)

Again, there's so much in this passage. Just a few thoughts then.

First, I am struck by the emphasis on the fact that the blind man was born blind (which is mentioned at least half a dozen times here). Surely then it doesn't make sense to ask if his blindness was caused by his own sins, since he was afflicted by it from birth. This, along with the more obviously metaphorical epilogue to the story ('those who do not see may see, and those who do see may become blind'), makes me wonder whether this chap's blindness may also be a metaphor for Original Sin, or at least for our basic human tendency to fall into sin. The blind man was born with a weakness - his lack of vision -, but we all have weaknesses of various sorts - metaphorically, we all have a tendency not to see very well - which is why we need to turn to Jesus, as the blind man does.

This also makes sense of the fact that here the blind man has to do something in order to be cured (to wash away the mud from his eyes), unlike in many other gospel accounts of miracles, where Jesus simply says something along the lines of 'be healed' and the individual is healed. If the blind man represents humanity in general, then the fact that he has to actively engage with his own healing makes sense. There are two elements to our spiritual healing: we have to let Jesus reach out to us (put the mud made from his own body in our eyes), but we also have to actively strive to be better people (go and wash the mud away). BUT the healing (not healing of physical ailments, but in a spiritual sense) is already there, even before we wash ourselves, because it is contained in Jesus's reaching out to us.

I was also interested in the pool whose name means 'Sent'. In Greek, this is 'apostello'. In other words, when Jesus sends the man to wash his eyes in the pool maybe he is literally asking him to make himself his apostle - to be one who is sent by God, 'so that God's works might be revealed in him'. And this is picked up in vv. 27-28 in the discussion of different understandings of discipleship.

But for all its complexity, at the heart of the passage is just that simple statement: 'I was blind but now I can see', which always reminds me of this:

Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
That sav'd a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

Thanksamillion that was commonplace just 2 generations ago in uk as well. Heartbreaking.

Tuo I thought that as well - it couldn't have been his own sin that made him blind if he was born blind. I love that hymn Amazing Grace, it usually brings a tear to my eye. Also love the film - about William Wilberforce and the abolition of the Slave Trade.

And this is this week's gospel reading

John 11.1-45

Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair; her brother Lazarus was ill. So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, ‘Lord, he whom you love is ill.’ But when Jesus heard it, he said, ‘This illness does not lead to death; rather it is for God’s glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.’ Accordingly, though Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus, after having heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.

Then after this he said to the disciples, ‘Let us go to Judea again.’ The disciples said to him, ‘Rabbi, the Jews were just now trying to stone you, and are you going there again?’ Jesus answered, ‘Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Those who walk during the day do not stumble, because they see the light of this world. But those who walk at night stumble, because the light is not in them.’ After saying this, he told them, ‘Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to awaken him.’ The disciples said to him, ‘Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be all right.’ Jesus, however, had been speaking about his death, but they thought that he was referring merely to sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead. For your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.’ Thomas, who was called the Twin, said to his fellow-disciples, ‘Let us also go, that we may die with him.’
Jesus the Resurrection and the Life

When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, some two miles away, and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them about their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary stayed at home. Martha said to Jesus, ‘Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise again.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.’ Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.’

When she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary, and told her privately, ‘The Teacher is here and is calling for you.’ And when she heard it, she got up quickly and went to him. Now Jesus had not yet come to the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. The Jews who were with her in the house, consoling her, saw Mary get up quickly and go out. They followed her because they thought that she was going to the tomb to weep there. When Mary came where Jesus was and saw him, she knelt at his feet and said to him, ‘Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.’ When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was greatly disturbed in spirit and deeply moved. He said, ‘Where have you laid him?’ They said to him, ‘Lord, come and see.’ Jesus began to weep. So the Jews said, ‘See how he loved him!’ But some of them said, ‘Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?’

Then Jesus, again greatly disturbed, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. Jesus said, ‘Take away the stone.’ Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, ‘Lord, already there is a stench because he has been dead for four days.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?’ So they took away the stone. And Jesus looked upwards and said, ‘Father, I thank you for having heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me.’ When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, ‘Lazarus, come out!’ The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, ‘Unbind him, and let him go.’

Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him.

Oh i love this passage but sadly have nothing to contribute with at the moment. Just had a beautiful baby and am feeling rather sore. Reading it has actually made me cry but one thing i have never understood was why Jesus cried? I know his friend had died but Him being Jesus and knowing He could and would raise Lazarus from the dead, why the tear? What do they really represent? Just me wondering,,for years..as for the rest my mind is full of baby dreams and songs. God knows how i can even string two sentences together..

Congratulations Blessed !

I think Jesus weeps in response to Mary and the Jews who came with her weeping. Her tears move Him because He understands her pain. However He also is disturbed in spirit because He wants them to be able to believe God is in Him. He wants them to believe He can raise Lazarus from the dead and that He wants to do this because of His love.

Thanks Caps for the explanation. Jesus wept has always puzzled me from when i was little..

Happy to help Blessed. How are you and your baby? Brilliant news.

Baby is a darling Caps but boy am i struggling with breastfeeding,will just run to our prayer thread and ask for a prayer. I am losing it and do not know how to make it better...

Aw Blessed, great to hear about your boy! Hope the breastfeeding gets easier for you, it can take a while to establish, I'll be praying for you too. Also I think there is lots of support to be found on the breastfeeding threads here.

I think that 'Jesus wept' is an amazing verse and encapsulates so much somehow. It would be easy for him to just go along, say 'ah but everything will be fine', raise Lazarus, smiles and celebration all round. No tears before or after - God's power shown, grief healed.

But Jesus wept. Even though he knew Lazarus would be raised. Even though he knew God's power within him to heal. He wept. He wept because he identified deeply with the grief of the sisters. He showed his humanity by being in it with them, not standing far apart. He showed God's heart for people in deepest grief, crying with them, standing with them, loving them. And this is God's heart. 'Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.' God's heart is a heart of comfort, and it is a heart of empathy.

I wonder if he also wept because in that moment, grief for his dear friend rushed over him, in a very human way, even though he knew what God was telling him to do. He was in the moment, even though God was outside time. Jesus experienced the grief in the moment, there and then, regardless of what happened next. The grief was not lessened because of the next stage. Maybe it fell upon him in waves.

Maybe he wept because of death. Because humanity are still under the curse of the fall, of sin and death, and it's not how God intended it to be. Maybe in that moment the weight of it all fell upon Jesus - all the pain of all the people, all the grief for loved ones, how skewed everything had become. And Jesus wept.

I find it so profound. Jesus there in the moment. Tears streaming down his cheeks while tears streaked down the sisters' cheeks. Love so amazing.

I agree, this is one of my favourite verses in the Bible. Really love what you wrote, MHD.

I think Jesus wept also because of death: because death is obscene and terrible, and none of us can escape it; and because suffering and dying is our human lot, and all of us will howl with grief - for those we love, for ourselves and our own mortality. He weeps because even though he can give Lazarus another chance of life, he will still one day have to go back into that cold, dark tomb; will one day have to know that life is over, and face death. There's no way out. And this is only one man: what about all those who are dying all over the world, for ever and ever... He can't save them all.

And then ... he can; he will; he does. But there's a cost, and someone must pay it: Jesus, with his own death. Jesus stands at Lazarus's tomb, weeping for Lazarus's death, and for all our deaths, and for his own death. He has to go into the tomb himself -- with no guarantees, no foreknowledge, no get out of jail free card, no immunity against the agony of death. And so he weeps.

madhairday so well put, thank you.

niminy Yes, I think it is amazing how the accounts of Jesus transcends the specific events of the time and relates exactly to our own lives.