Christian Bible Study

[HoneyandRum]

Welcome everyone to Christian Bible Study week 1. For convenience we are using the Lectionary Gospel reading for each Sunday. Our reading this week is Luke 2:22-40. For anyone without a bible here is the reading, (quite long):

"And when the day came for them to be purified in keeping with the Law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord - observing what is written in the Law of the Lord: Every first-born male must be consecrated to the Lord - and also to offer in sacrifice, in accordance with what is prescribed in the Law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. Now in Jerusalem there was a man named Simeon. He was an upright and devout man; he looked forward to the restoration of Israel and the Holy Spirit rested on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death until he had set eyes on the Christ of the Lord. Prompted by the Spirit he came to the Temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the Law required, he took him into his arms and blessed God; and he said:

Now, Master, you are letting your servant go in peace as you promised;
for my eyes have seen the salvation
which you have made ready in the sight of the nations;
a light of revelation for the gentiles and glory for your people Israel.

As the child's father and mother were wondering at the things that were being said about him, Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, 'Look, he is destined to be a sign that is opposed - and a sword will pierce your soul too - so that the secret thoughts of many may be laid bare.'

There was a prophetess, too, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was well on in years. Her days of girlhood over, she had been married for seven years before becoming a widow. She was now eighty-four years old and never left the Temple, serving God night and day with fasting and prayer. She came up just at that moment and began to praise God; and she spoke of the child to all who looked forward to the deliverance of Jerusalem.

When they had done everything the Law of the Lord required, they went back to Gaililee, to their own town of Nazareth. And as the child grew to maturity, he was filled with wisdom; and God's favour was with him."

(This quote is from The New Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation widely used in English speaking countries. If you have a different translation you would like to post please do, with details of the translation you are using.)

To fellow Christians: This is a place of fellowship, encouragement, gentleness and understanding as sisters and brothers in Christ. To help each other grow in faith, understanding of the scriptures and of each other's faith traditions in a respectful and loving manner.

Please share your reflections, inspirations, thoughts, questions, musings and findings from study here.

Shout out to those who dropped by showing interest in a Bible Study:
niminypiminy, wolfiefan, Dogonabeanbag, StressedHEmum, minniemagoo, lostblonde86, thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts, madhairday, thanksamillion, Loobingler, Tuo, Gingerdodger, ZingSweetApple, Cloutiedumpling, Gingercurl and AMumInScotland !

Ah, Tuo, I have been thinking of that poem too, and wondering if I should post it.

Here's this week's Gospel:

John 20.19-end

When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’ When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’

But Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord.’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.’

A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.’ Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.’

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.

Place marking for now as this thread had dropped off my list. Will try to be back later!

I love this passage. It reminds me that the disciples weren't men that were superhuman, but were just normal people and that like all of us they sometimes fell short. Jesus knew what it was that Thomas had said but he didn't reject him because of it. Rather, he addressed Thomas' failings.

I agree cloutie. I was really moved by this this morning. Doubt is normal and understandable... Our preacher this morning quoted Paul Tillich: 'Doubt is not the opposite of faith, but an element of faith'. I find this reassuring, but also a challenge: how can I build faith on this slightly dodgy foundation?

I also like the way that this passage picks up the poem I quoted a couple of days ago. Thomas says 'unless I touch Jesus' very wounds, I will not believe', while e e cummings says 'because I can touch (and taste and see and hear and smell and breathe) - because I am - I believe'.

I love it that Jesus meets Thomas' need to see and touch, even though He makes it clear Thomas would be 'blessed' if he could believe without seeing.

I think this is so true of life. It is too easy to miss our blessings and not even see them, have our focus elsewhere, if we only believe what we see right in front of us. In order to be prepared to acknowledge what is going on, God, you have to expect to see it, His work, otherwise you might not be looking in the right direction.

Thomas must have wanted to see Jesus, he still met with the other disciples. I think this shows how Jesus can meet our need as long as we still want Him and are prepared to believe.

I am also very interested by Jesus' phrase,

‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’

I think this shows how important forgiveness is, how it is difficult for others to show repentance, if we will not forgive them. If we hang on to past hurts it is difficult to acknowledge, look for and then see repentance in others, their behaviour is always marred by our hurt.

I think doubt can lead us to exercising our Faith, as it shows us we have a choice, we have to choose to exercise our Faith. Doubt confirms we have free will.

I like that Jesus breathed on his disciples to bestow the Holy Spirit on them. Often, when I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, the effect is an involuntary deep breath.

I really like this passage because I always feel like it's almost giving permission for doubts, or showing us that there's nothing wrong in not being certain all the time. And also that when we do have those doubts God meets us and knows what we need to get through them.

I love Jesus'greeting. He offers them peace. He does not ask them questions because He knows what they need at that point in time. Peace that surpasses all understanding. I also love the fact that He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit which makes me notice only now that this is the first time the disciples meet or come into contact with Him. I thought the first time was at pentecost. However if I am wrong please someone enlighten me. I feel here they receive and at pentecost get to experience the Holy Spirit.

Good point, BlessedA, I'm sure someone with greater knowledge of the Bible will be along to answer it. It reads to me that, at this stage, the Holy Spirit Jesus bestowed on them by breathing on them gave them grace to forgive others. Then, at Pentecost, they received the other spiritual gifts, speaking in tongues etc. that was a rushing wind as well, wasn't it?

Hello everyone. Sorry I haven't been around to post a new passage. I've been sitting in the Slough of Despond for the last couple of weeks, and finding it hard to motivate myself to things. But crawling out now...

Re the Holy Spirit, in all the gospels John the baptist says that Jesus ('the one who comes after me') will baptise not just with water but with the Holy Spirit. And in the sending out of the disciples at the end of Matthew, Jesus commands them 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' (28.19), and in fact earlier in that gospel, when Jesus sends the disciples out into Galilee, he tells them not to worry about what they will say because 'it is not you who speak, but the spirit of your Father speaking through you' (10.20).

I think the idea that the Holy Spirit will come to the disciples as a comforter/friend/adviser is something that is specific to John and then is there in Acts, but in Matthew (and to a lesser extent Luke) the Holy Spirit is already present to the disciples. So 'tis complicated!

Going back to Thomas, I find this a very powerful passage for thinking about Jesus's risen body. When Jesus says 'put your finger here and see my hands' and then 'reach out your hand and put it in my side' it is clear that the wounds are still there in his risen body -- in some way they have healed but not healed. The wounds don't magically go away, and yet they are healed. Are they scars?

There's something very powerful about putting your hand on someone's scar scar tissue is twisty and lumpy, and it stretches the skin around it. Though it doesn't have nerve endings in, scars are often very sensitive. What must it have been like to touch Jesus's scarred hands? To touch, perhaps gingerly and shrinkingly, the terrible scar in his side? Scars show that we are alive you can't heal when you are dead -- but they show where we have been damaged and broken, and though we have healed, we're always changed by what has happened to us. How had Jesus been scarred by what he had gone through? And what was it like for Thomas to touch those places, to feel the living warmth of Jesus's body, the places where he had been broken and suffered?

I don't have a conclusion to all of these questions. The image of Jesus's broken hands has been very important for me in my own spiritual life, and in a way I don't feel like I know what their 'message' for me is -- or maybe their message, or meaning keeps changing. It's more that this is a passage, an image that I keep coming back to, that recurs in my prayers when I am lost and hurting. It's when I feel wounded myself, that I am most powerfully afflicted and comforted by Thomas's touch of those wounded-healed hands.

Will be back tomorrow to post a new passage!

Fab post niminy. I am so sorry to hear you've been having a tough time.

I've been reflecting on the scars too. Can't go into a lot of detail on phone but been thinking on the fact that Jesus' resurrection body wasn't 'perfect' or 'whole' in the sense we may think of how resurrection bodies may look, and the connotations that has for how we approach what 'healing' means. There can be a catch all and hurtful approach to healing which says that every disease and condition ever is not God's ideal and will be rectified in heaven; but actually, many people find that their conditions are part of what makes them who they are, and that removing them would make them someone else. It's complicated - for someone like me, my disease is not part of my identity and I'd be very happy for it to be healed fully - and think it will (be interesting though if the scars on the lungs are always there but just no pain or infection anymore? ? Pondering here) - but for someone say who has an ASD or something like Downs Syndrome, would it be positive to think of these things as part of who this person is, and be negative and hurtful to say that God's ideal for them is to be 'perfect' and that this perfection means they will be free of these conditions in their resurrection body?

Jesus still had his scars, still was himself and what he had a suffered. I wonder if there was pain or whether there were scars but no pain. I think that people like my friends beautiful dd with Downs will be who she is, and God's idea of perfection is very different to ours.

This is featuring in lot of disability and theology readings nowadays - and a good thing, I think. I cannot imagine my dd with hour her dyspraxia because she would not be her without her. I wonder if God has a perfect version of her but that perfection is in her dyspraxia and not without it?

I think the wounds on Jesus are incredibly important for how we see what his ideal is and how we view healing and wholeness.

This isn't meant to be a thread about a thread and this isn't maybe the right place to post, but when I read the posts re losing your faith I was struck by how little I know about other branches of the Christian faith and how they interpret the bible. Are there any easy to read idiots guides which compare and contrast without being overly judgemental that anyone could recommend? Or any websites? Thanks

Got you niminy wrt the Holy Spirit.

Hi niminy, praying for you and remember that God is made strong in our weakness.

BlessedA my DS2 has SLD, ASD and bi polar disorder. I am convinced he has faith because he just seems to be full of Grace in church and seems to understand that he is loved by God. I have always thought that, in eternity he would be without his disabilities. I can't remember now where I got that idea from. You have got me thinking!

I agree with you cheapskate. Not only will our bodies made perfect but I believe that when in front of the King of Kings we shall be perfect as well. Your son knows he is loved by God and the human brain might not understand everything but we can't know how God communicates with others. He is able to get His love through to your son without any of us being aware. Rejoice sister. Your Ds won't have a single blemish or disability when he is with the Lord.

Here's this week's passage:

John 10.1-10

‘Very truly, I tell you, anyone who does not enter the sheepfold by the gate but climbs in by another way is a thief and a bandit. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. They will not follow a stranger, but they will run from him because they do not know the voice of strangers.’ Jesus used this figure of speech with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

So again Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and bandits; but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

Thanks niminy. Can I just go back to the last one for a minute - sorry!!

Blessed I agree we will be perfect in eter nity, but I am not sure about what that perfect actually looks like. After all, jesus' resurrection body had scars. He was blemished and 'imperfect'. What I think is that everyone will be the perfect version of who they were created to be. There will be no more pain, crying or mourning. But will everyone simply conform to an ideal of perfection - or will people be who they are now bit made perfect - for example in my dd case, having dyspraxia makes her very uniquely her. It seems to me that we sometimes take a narrow understanding of what perfection is. God's power is made perfect in weakness - the whole gospel is one of foolishness and weakness. I know that a friend of mine with a dc with Downs would be most upset to think that her dc would be changed beyond recognition to become 'perfect' - do you see what I mean?

All I do know is that there will be no more pain and we will be like Jesus. And Jesus had scars.

God is great. God is in this suffering with us and understands. And God will make all things right. Whatever that may look like - it will be amazing and beyond incomprehension and give beautiful dignity to each and every one.

Cheapskate

MHD I want to put big love hearts all around that post.

Thank you niminy

Mhd. good point. I really should stop posting because lately i have been going off the mark and not be clear. Please do not think I think less of anyone with a disability as being imperfections, never. I tend to think of us being made perfect spiritually(in the know and becoming one with Christ) but physically as well. By that I would like that my body although still the same, won't hurt anymore. I would like to think that we still get to keep our individuality yet at the same time be made whole and different from what we are now. By the way I know we are one with Christ now but not all the way, I guess it's the same with everything else . my Ds had a hole in her heart and we thought she was perfect . However, in God's arms I believe she is more perfect and different in heaven (1Cor15vs35-49).To be honest I read Isaiah 35vs3-5 and can't help thinking that disabilities will be gone.MHD you know that there has never been a book that is horribly as misinterpreted as the bible. I'm guilty but the reason I am here is to learn and be corrected. You madam are wise, i say this after reading post after post you wrote on these threads. English not being my first language means my interpretation of the language is interesting :) ask my DH.

MHD i can't get past the Jesus had scars without welling up. So true yet I have never heard a single preachers put it that way. I come from a different place wrt Christianity and I don't know if you saw some of my posts where I explained that the way we have heard the bible interpreted is either black or white. Being here has already given me other shades like pink, blue, you name it. I am undoing over 20 years of hearing the same thing about Christianity in general so bear with me when I am uttering nonsense. Thank you for your last post

blessed I am so sorry about your child. She is indeed healed and whole.

I'm not wise really - most of the time I'm just wondering aloud! I love it though that there are shades of every colour we can explore when it comes to the bible.

I certainly believe everyone will be made whole, it's just what that whole looks like that interests me. I suspect it will be different to our expectations and suspect it will be astonishing and beautiful.

Thank you all, MHD, BlessedA and niminy , I have tried to stop second guessing God. MHD - I am sure eternity will have some wonderful surprises in store for us! BlessedA, I love the way you explain that God has a way of making his love known to DS2, that we are not aware of. That's so true, of course, yet I'd never thought of it like that .

Niminy, I pray you are feeling refreshed this week. In this week's passage, I'm struck by the reference to the thieves and bandits who try to climb into the sheepfold by another way, rather than by the gate which is held open for them. I sometimes feel I'm surrounded by people who are trying to find shortcuts, quick fixes, cheats (as in video games). They want to swindle others or steal rather than earn. The irony is that they think they are taking an easier route through life, but they are actually making life more difficult for themselves. Like, I used to lie to get out of difficult situations, but learnt that then you had to remember whom you had said what to, feel guilty about not telling the truth and worry about being found out - not to mention facing embarrassment if you were found out. So actually it's easier to tell the truth. In the same way it's easier to enter the sheepfold by the gate than to climb over the fence. So much better to follow the example of Christ than the ways of the world. Hope this makes sense.