Christian Bible Study

[HoneyandRum]

Welcome everyone to Christian Bible Study week 1. For convenience we are using the Lectionary Gospel reading for each Sunday. Our reading this week is Luke 2:22-40. For anyone without a bible here is the reading, (quite long):

"And when the day came for them to be purified in keeping with the Law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord - observing what is written in the Law of the Lord: Every first-born male must be consecrated to the Lord - and also to offer in sacrifice, in accordance with what is prescribed in the Law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. Now in Jerusalem there was a man named Simeon. He was an upright and devout man; he looked forward to the restoration of Israel and the Holy Spirit rested on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death until he had set eyes on the Christ of the Lord. Prompted by the Spirit he came to the Temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the Law required, he took him into his arms and blessed God; and he said:

Now, Master, you are letting your servant go in peace as you promised;
for my eyes have seen the salvation
which you have made ready in the sight of the nations;
a light of revelation for the gentiles and glory for your people Israel.

As the child's father and mother were wondering at the things that were being said about him, Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, 'Look, he is destined to be a sign that is opposed - and a sword will pierce your soul too - so that the secret thoughts of many may be laid bare.'

There was a prophetess, too, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was well on in years. Her days of girlhood over, she had been married for seven years before becoming a widow. She was now eighty-four years old and never left the Temple, serving God night and day with fasting and prayer. She came up just at that moment and began to praise God; and she spoke of the child to all who looked forward to the deliverance of Jerusalem.

When they had done everything the Law of the Lord required, they went back to Gaililee, to their own town of Nazareth. And as the child grew to maturity, he was filled with wisdom; and God's favour was with him."

(This quote is from The New Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation widely used in English speaking countries. If you have a different translation you would like to post please do, with details of the translation you are using.)

To fellow Christians: This is a place of fellowship, encouragement, gentleness and understanding as sisters and brothers in Christ. To help each other grow in faith, understanding of the scriptures and of each other's faith traditions in a respectful and loving manner.

Please share your reflections, inspirations, thoughts, questions, musings and findings from study here.

Shout out to those who dropped by showing interest in a Bible Study:
niminypiminy, wolfiefan, Dogonabeanbag, StressedHEmum, minniemagoo, lostblonde86, thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts, madhairday, thanksamillion, Loobingler, Tuo, Gingerdodger, ZingSweetApple, Cloutiedumpling, Gingercurl and AMumInScotland !

I think it is interesting that Jesus chose to speak to a Samaritan woman, as the Jews did not mix with the Samaritans. This shows us how Salvation through Christ is available to all who will receive it.

Also Jesus starts by asking her for something she has, (physical) water and then uses her response to move the discussion onto spiritual matters. He also knows her, knows about the 5 men husbands she had and the man in her life now who is not her husband. Yet this does not prevent Jesus from telling her about spiritual matters.

She then tells others her testimony. So someone, who by the Jews would have been traditionally discounted, is responsible for bringing others to Jesus.

As Jesus says, "...see how the fields are ripe for harvesting." The message I get from this is not to write anyone off.

I have been enjoying this thread since it started, thank you to all who contribute.

The first thing that strikes me is that the woman leaves her water jar and returns to the city to spread the message. She abandons her original task and just as Jesus said the living water became more important to her than the drinking water. She sounds like someone who would have been considered a sinner and an outcast but Jesus still chose her to spread his message.

Also the bit about harvesting now instead of in four months time, its about not delaying but also everyone knows when harvest time is but Jesus tells them to look around, they were following their assumptions instead of opening their eyes to the truth. In the final verse we see that initially people believe because of someone's testimony but then they come to faith because of their own personal experiences. All we need to do is share the story of our faith, that's all, the rest of the hard work has already been done.

So much to talk about here. Thanks for posting niminy and to others for their thoughts.

I am really struck, once again, by the way in which the Gospel writers emphasise both the continuity from Christianity's Jewish roots and its utter difference. Why mention Jacob here? It's irrelevant to the story, except to emphasise that the God whose son Christ is, is the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob. And yet this same Son of God makes it clear in this passage that he's here not only for those who are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but also for Samaritans... and not only for Samaritans, but for all of us. Hence, God is not to be worshipped only in Jerusalem, nor only on the mountain sacred to the Samaritans; God is wherever two or three are gathered together in his name. But at the same time the roots of this faith are clearly traced back to those Jewish roots ('salvation comes from the Jews'): those roots are fulfilled, not superseded, we reap what they sowed and we reap it because they sowed it...

Moreover, this Samaritan woman is not only an outsider but also a woman, and not only an outsider and a woman but also a sinner; yet Jesus chooses to reveal himself to her. All she has to do is to ask for the living water that he can provide. This has huge resonances for me personally... the sense of knowing that there is something out there - something more, something meaningful - but being afraid (or embarrassed, or too stubborn) to ask for it.

Then there's the emphasis on food and water. Again, it seems to me that this Lent Gospel looks forward to the end of Lent. Jesus offers the Samaritan woman 'living water', in the same way that, on Good Friday, he will pour his disciples the wine which is also the blood that he sheds so that they (we, all of us) may live. And the disciples want Jesus to eat, but we know, from the story of the Last Supper, that while they think about feeding his body, it is, in fact, his body which feeds and nourishes them (and us).

I am also struck by the way in which, although this passage (like so much of John) is very metaphorical, Jesus speaks directly too. The metaphors of living water and spiritual food and reaping and sowing are all well and good, but the heart of the passage couldn't be clearer, when Jesus says 'I am he, the one who is speaking to you'.

I'm going to a baptism on Sunday, and it strikes me that this passage, with its emphasis on living water and on inclusiveness, is singularly appropriate for the occasion.

Disjointed thoughts, sorry, but it's a passage with so much in it!

Thanks mhd.

Not much to add, but I think a woman in that time and place, who had had 5 husbands and was not currently married to the man she lives with, was actually a prostitute, the man her pimp. So, once again, Jesus actively seeks those society oppresses to spread the good word, "the last shall be first and the first last".

I don't see the woman as a prostitute so much as someone who has been passed from man to man, someone who has been divorced by each man when he's become tired of her, and at the last, is not even able to ask for the social standing of marriage. Her situation speaks eloquently to me of the low status of women, particularly older women, in Jesus's time, and their legal and social vulnerability.

She's a nobody Samaritans were unclean, and she doubly unclean, a woman living outside marriage, an outsider even in her own society, forced to go to the well in the heat of the day when nobody else is around. And Jesus asks her for water water that would have been regarded as contaminated because she touched it -- and offers her his own living water. And unlike Nicodemus, that pillar of the Jewish establishment, she gets it, immediately, and immediately assents with her whole being to what he has told her. You know all about me; give me your water. And he says to her "I am he, the one who is speaking to you": I am who I am. God speaks directly to this poor, unclean, outcast, older woman, and it's not just chance.

Wells are where important meetings take place (where a community gets their water from a well it's where they do a lot of their socialising) . Jacob and Rachel meet at the well, as do Isaac’s servant and Rebekah, so meetings at wells presage marriages and children (and, of course, these two marriages are key ones in the history of Israel). Jesus meets an older woman – a woman well past child-bearing age – and the meeting cannot lead to a marriage. But it does lead to something. What happens is a kind of falling in love that changes everything. And her response is to go and tell everyone she knows. Despite being who she is, she bears witness to this amazing thing that has happened, and what she says carries deep conviction, so much so that people flock with her to see this extraordinary man she has encountered. That one life-changing encounter with the living God brings other people near to him.

Got more to say but have to run! Will post again later.

So, continued...

This passage has been profoundly important to me. When I struggling with the thought that I might have a vocation to ordained ministry someone suggested I should spend some time praying with this passage. I did, and it was a turning point. If Christ had spoken to this outcast, foreign, unclean woman and tell her his truth, and promise her eternal life, could it be that he was speaking to me? And if she could tell people about what she had experienced so that they came to see for themselves, could I?

And I think this is one of this passage's hopeful messages, that we can all meet Christ and be transformed by that meeting, no matter how sinful we are, or how useless we feel, no matter that we are on the edge of our community, or strangers or outcasts, no matter that we have been rejected or hurt by other people. For us, Christ is always at the well, always there to meet us, always waiting to dip the bucket down and offer us his living water. It reminds me of a line from one of Gerard Manley Hopkins's poems, 'God's Grandeur': 'There lives the dearest freshness deep down things'. Christ is the dearest freshness that will never fail us, will always be waiting for us if we only ask him 'Sir, give me this water that I may never be thirsty'.

Lovely thoughts niminy.

Thanks niminy that's really helpful. Also love the link MHD

We get our drinking water from a well and when my parents came out to visit us for the first time my Mum was really keen to get water and proclaimed that she would do it all the time they were with us. She's a minister and I think she thought she would get some brilliant sermon illustrations! After the first time she made my Dad go because it was too much hard work

Lovely miny and may i say i was impressed by the two of you holding your own at another thread recently.. That you and caps. It was too intellectual for me to join so i stood on the sidelines and cheered for you. Coward me? No...

thanks i am with your mum on this one. You have to agree that well water is actually delicious so she might have just liked the earthly taste of it...

Thanks. Blessed it's good to know someone is cheering on!

I find it difficult to communicate my Christian beliefs into words sometimes, and inwardly cringe if someone takes the words I have written to mean something completely different to what I meant to communicate.
The process of reflecting and verbalizing Christian beliefs is good, I find, though, it clarifies them to yourself and hopefully others. I hate it when people take offense when it really was not meant though.

I know what you mean caps. I have only joined in a discussion once and it is amazing how something can be taken out of context and misunderstood. At first i thought it was because English was not my first language people had trouble getting what i wanted to say. I soon realised it was just Mn,nothing to do with how i expressed myself. Some people choose to be offended by almost everything and i realised christians are not that liked here. Doesn't bother me anymore. Just had to grow up. It is just great to see people like you who are eloquent[sp] enough put the christian views across without running away. Thank you for representing us who are limited by the lamguage and can only go a certain distance..

Amazed, you see that from what I have written Blessed. I used to get terrible writer's block when I was a student, of English, ironically. Could barely string a sentence together sometimes. I have found pursuing my Christian beliefs has clarified my thoughts somewhat though, for which I am very thankful.

And i find that the only time i express myself better in English is when discussing anything christian related.. Guess God gives us the words and The Holy Spirit leads..

I know what you mean capsium. I feel like it's important for me to get my thoughts down, in order to explore my belief more and test it out as it were. It's hard when words are twisted, which is often the case, but it's good to carry on anyway. Sometimes I feel like my posts are rather stream of consciousness and make no sense, but there you go.

Love the thoughts about the woman at the well.

yeah, I have felt like that at times too, mhd.

Blessed Your English is great, I would not have known English was not your first language if you hadn't have said.

I think that too Blessed -you always make sense and speak eloquently :)

Thank you ladies. Yes the woman at the well. The first time i read the chapter a lot of thoughts were going on in my head. First off she was quite happy to have a chat with Jesus. Second she did not lie about her men issues. The openness surprised me. Many times when i meet a stranger and they want to get personal i feel uncomfortable and try my best not to give them much info about me. She met Jesus at the well!! Talking about the men in her life. How did she manage to be so open minded. Maybe she was just tired of the status quo. I don't know but i love that when Jesus talks of the Living Water she does not waste time in trying to figure out if He is telling the truth or not. She wanted it right there and then. She wanted and chose life. She must have been living a non existent life. Then went home to shout it out that she had chosen life. She must have been set free and you know when the son has set you free then you are free indeed!!when you are free you want others to experience the same hence the running back to the village to testify.

There must have happened a physical change in her as well because a woman of her standing probably would not have anyone listen to her, grrrr, i will stop,just babbling now.

Here's this week's passage -- another long one with a huge amount in it! I wonder if maybe we should carry on with the Sunday Gospel reading up to Easter and then reassess whether we want to do something different?

John 9.1-end

A Man Born Blind Receives Sight

As he walked along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ Jesus answered, ‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.’ When he had said this, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva and spread the mud on the man’s eyes, saying to him, ‘Go, wash in the pool of Siloam’ (which means Sent). Then he went and washed and came back able to see. The neighbours and those who had seen him before as a beggar began to ask, ‘Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?’ Some were saying, ‘It is he.’ Others were saying, ‘No, but it is someone like him.’ He kept saying, ‘I am the man.’ But they kept asking him, ‘Then how were your eyes opened?’ He answered, ‘The man called Jesus made mud, spread it on my eyes, and said to me, “Go to Siloam and wash.” Then I went and washed and received my sight.’ They said to him, ‘Where is he?’ He said, ‘I do not know.’
The Pharisees Investigate the Healing

They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. Now it was a sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. Then the Pharisees also began to ask him how he had received his sight. He said to them, ‘He put mud on my eyes. Then I washed, and now I see.’ Some of the Pharisees said, ‘This man is not from God, for he does not observe the sabbath.’ But others said, ‘How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?’ And they were divided. So they said again to the blind man, ‘What do you say about him? It was your eyes he opened.’ He said, ‘He is a prophet.’

The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight and asked them, ‘Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?’ His parents answered, ‘We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; but we do not know how it is that now he sees, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.’ His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that anyone who confessed Jesus to be the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. Therefore his parents said, ‘He is of age; ask him.’

So for the second time they called the man who had been blind, and they said to him, ‘Give glory to God! We know that this man is a sinner.’ He answered, ‘I do not know whether he is a sinner. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.’ They said to him, ‘What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?’ He answered them, ‘I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?’ Then they reviled him, saying, ‘You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.’ The man answered, ‘Here is an astonishing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will. Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.’ They answered him, ‘You were born entirely in sins, and are you trying to teach us?’ And they drove him out.

Spiritual Blindness

Jesus heard that they had driven him out, and when he found him, he said, ‘Do you believe in the Son of Man?’ He answered, ‘And who is he, sir? Tell me, so that I may believe in him.’ Jesus said to him, ‘You have seen him, and the one speaking with you is he.’ He said, ‘Lord, I believe.’ And he worshipped him. Jesus said, ‘I came into this world for judgement so that those who do not see may see, and those who do see may become blind.’ Some of the Pharisees near him heard this and said to him, ‘Surely we are not blind, are we?’ Jesus said to them, ‘If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now that you say, “We see”, your sin remains.

Heck that's looonnnnng....

will have a think. I love it!

Me too. I love the simplicity of 'One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.' It's so easy to get tangled up in complexities (see: all debate threads with atheists). I love it that the man simply sticks to what he knows, and keeps on saying what is true to his experience.

The first think that strikes me about this passage is that the disciple's first question on encountering a man that was blind from birth is concerned with apportioning blame, '...who sinned..?' However Jesus blames neither the man or his parents and focuses on healing his eyes.

It is interesting that Jesus rubs mud on his eyes, mixed with His saliva and then goes and instructs him to wash. I wonder if this could be symbolic of Jesus showing us his perspective (His saliva) on the sin (the mud) in the world, then washing us clean of it and healing us.

It also strikes me that the Pharisees are divided concerning the man's healing. Some do not believe Jesus comes from God and they question this because they claim Jesus has not observed the sabbath. They are more concerned with ritual than the actuality of God. They then question this man's parents who will confirm that he was born blind but are too afraid to confirm Jesus had healed him. The Pharisees accuse Jesus of being a sinner, due to him not observing their sabbath rituals. But the man who was blind shows he does not believe this. Then when he encounters Jesus again he confirms this belief.

To me this communicates also that true Sabbath rest is not concerned with observing ritual but allowing God to work through you, it is a message of Grace.

The last bit shows that if we admit we are fallible, blind, not knowing everything and needing God we are considered blameless by God. It is the ones who claim they know what is right, in themselves, without God that are in sin.