Christian Bible Study

[HoneyandRum]

Welcome everyone to Christian Bible Study week 1. For convenience we are using the Lectionary Gospel reading for each Sunday. Our reading this week is Luke 2:22-40. For anyone without a bible here is the reading, (quite long):

"And when the day came for them to be purified in keeping with the Law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord - observing what is written in the Law of the Lord: Every first-born male must be consecrated to the Lord - and also to offer in sacrifice, in accordance with what is prescribed in the Law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. Now in Jerusalem there was a man named Simeon. He was an upright and devout man; he looked forward to the restoration of Israel and the Holy Spirit rested on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death until he had set eyes on the Christ of the Lord. Prompted by the Spirit he came to the Temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the Law required, he took him into his arms and blessed God; and he said:

Now, Master, you are letting your servant go in peace as you promised;
for my eyes have seen the salvation
which you have made ready in the sight of the nations;
a light of revelation for the gentiles and glory for your people Israel.

As the child's father and mother were wondering at the things that were being said about him, Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, 'Look, he is destined to be a sign that is opposed - and a sword will pierce your soul too - so that the secret thoughts of many may be laid bare.'

There was a prophetess, too, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was well on in years. Her days of girlhood over, she had been married for seven years before becoming a widow. She was now eighty-four years old and never left the Temple, serving God night and day with fasting and prayer. She came up just at that moment and began to praise God; and she spoke of the child to all who looked forward to the deliverance of Jerusalem.

When they had done everything the Law of the Lord required, they went back to Gaililee, to their own town of Nazareth. And as the child grew to maturity, he was filled with wisdom; and God's favour was with him."

(This quote is from The New Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation widely used in English speaking countries. If you have a different translation you would like to post please do, with details of the translation you are using.)

To fellow Christians: This is a place of fellowship, encouragement, gentleness and understanding as sisters and brothers in Christ. To help each other grow in faith, understanding of the scriptures and of each other's faith traditions in a respectful and loving manner.

Please share your reflections, inspirations, thoughts, questions, musings and findings from study here.

Shout out to those who dropped by showing interest in a Bible Study:
niminypiminy, wolfiefan, Dogonabeanbag, StressedHEmum, minniemagoo, lostblonde86, thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts, madhairday, thanksamillion, Loobingler, Tuo, Gingerdodger, ZingSweetApple, Cloutiedumpling, Gingercurl and AMumInScotland !

In a slightly different vein, the reference to the women reminds me of Duccio's wonderful Deposition, which I find really moving. I see this image as an image of such love - Mary's love for her son, but by extension his love - God's love - for us. A love so great that he was prepared to die for us. In the image the other women are clearly grieving, but Mary's expression is pure love - love and a sort of recognition that takes us right back to the prophecy of Simeon with which this thread (and Lent) started.

Hoping I'm not gate crashing...
I'm always struck by the tearing of the curtain. The symbolism that shows I can talk to God directly- there are no special places only for priests.

It's all just so awful. It must have been so awful for his followers. For his family. I had to watch miracle maker with a class of 7 yr olds at school once, and at this bit I was silently weeping (fortunately at the back).

poshme - Hi, love your comment about tearing of the curtain. It is so amazing that we can have a personal relationship with God!

I'm struck by the generosity of Joseph of Arimethea. He really was a disciple of Jesus, he'd totally understood His teaching on giving - to the extent that he gave up his own tomb - which I gather was a big deal in those days. Of course, as disciples, we discover that the more we give, the more we receive as God blesses our giving. Joseph got his tomb back, Jesus only borrowed it for a few days. How blessed Joseph must have felt, to be right at the crux of the most amazing miracle of all time, the Resurrection.

Sorry, niminy, didn't mean to chase you up! Very grateful for your service to us, posting the relevant Bible passages each week, thanks.

Its good to stop and contemplate the whole story of Jesus' passion. Whilst the great news if the resurrection is just around the corner it is very moving and thought provoking to just stop and focus on the events leading up to his death and the sheer enormity and intensity of events.

It is my favourite mass of the year tonight, Maundy Thursday, I love the way it echoes the close friendship to Jesus and us being able to reflect on that - and what will come.

Joseph got to be buried in the same tomb that the King of Kings had lain in for three days..People overlook this but i have also thougt about it a few times about his generousity and fearlessness. Considering that the disciples had gone into hiding and were scared Joseph took a bold move by taking the body of Jesus, he was announcing his discipleship to all and sundry and there was no hesitation. He just did it. Such a blessed man.i bet he was rewarded a hundredfold, if not in this life then in ertenity..

This verse makes me sad. It is one which i read only if i have to which will be in church or prayergroup. From the moment He gets on that donkey, i want to believe that they won't be shouting "crucify Him" within a few days but i know it is silly. It is what it is. He had to die for the world. It is when i read about the angels announcing His resurrection that i begin to smile. The whole suffering part, especially in the garden of Gethsemane when He is asking his disciples to stay awake and pray makes me really sad. Then He arises and i get over it and become joyful and thank God that Jesus died and rose again. And that i am free..

Caps about Jesus crying " my God,my God why have you forsaken me? I think Jesus at that moment was carrying all iniquity and sin that God had separated Himself froms all the dirt that was on Jesus, albeit temporarily. He felt the separation and for Him that must have been thr most horrible feeling ever. He the son of God, now without His father's closeness.{i have no idea why He cries but that would be my take on it} smarter and bible understanding people will come along and explain..

Thanks Blessed, that makes sense.

That's how I always think of it too, Blessed - that somehow, in that moment, Jesus was forsaken by the Father because of all the sin pressing upon him - the Father could not look upon him in that moment, and turned his face away. That reminds me of the words to this song which always touches me:

Sorry posted too soon!

How deep the Father's love for us,
How vast beyond all measure
That He should give His only Son
And make a wretch His treasure

How great the pain of searing loss,
The Father turns His face away
As wounds which mar the Chosen One,
Bring many sons to glory

Behold the Man upon the cross,
My sin upon His shoulders
Ashamed I hear my mocking voice,
Call out among the scoffers

It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished
His dying breath has brought me life
I know that it is finished.

I will not boast in anything
No gifts, no power, no wisdom
But I will boast in Jesus Christ
His death and resurrection

Why should I gain from His reward?
I cannot give an answer
But this I know with all my heart
His wounds have paid my ransom

How great the pain of searing loss,
The Father turns His face away
As wounds which mar the Chosen One,
Bring many sons to glory

Beautiful, profound, awesome.

This whole passage is amazing, isn't it? I think it's so right niminy that you posted this one for us to ponder on before the wonder of Sunday's passage. I am also always struck hard by the tearing of the curtain in half. So symbolic of the unconditional love of God. Imagine how this actually looked, in reality: The curtain of the temple would not have been like our lightweight curtains, but made of a very rich, thick material, impossible to tear by hand - imagine it rent in half, dramatically torn. What an amazing representation of what Jesus did. Before Jesus died only the high priest could go behind the curtain into the Holy of Holies, but Jesus made it so that we all had that access into God's presence. Incredible, astounding, humbling.

Oh my word! MHD that song is one of my all time favs. It is beautifully done and the words are just awesome. I never ever tire of listening to it. I love the verse " i will not boast in anything" because it reminds me who i am and brings me back to planet earth. I do not know if i am able to go to church this sunday because i don't trust myself to give an honest answer if asked how i am doing. The whole church will be asking and i don't think i will manage to keep the tears in, a pity because i really want to go to church but this breastfeeding has turned me into a cry baby.

MHD i will listen to this song tomorrow and find some comfort in those beautiful words. Thanks for posting.

I just knew niminy would post this verse for us for Easter. Good job woman.

I love this worship song as well, especially the verse which begins, " why should I gain from his reward?" It brings home the unfairness of it all - in my favour! I usually have tears in my tees by this verse.

I am finding that I am meditating today on the shut, sealed tomb. Like a door slammed in our faces, like a blank wall, it seems so final.

I'm thinking about Mary gazing at the stone that seals her son in his tomb, and at the finality of it. He is dead; he's gone; he will never come back. How she must have remembered cradling him as a baby, kissing his hurts away as a child, seeing him grow to be a man. And then seeing his terrible slow death, and holding and gentling his poor dead body, laying it out and doing the last caring for it that she could. And then putting it in the tomb, putting him to his last bed as she must have done so many times when he was a child. And closing the door, sealing the tomb, saying goodbye.

And then, with the disciples, going away in shock and grief. Leaving the sealed tomb, with its shut door of rock showing its blank face to the world. Nothing is here; no-one is here. It is finished.

I came across a wonderful post from the nuns at iBenedictines, which summed up the mournful waiting of this day, and also points towards the great joy of tomorrow:

"There is a quietness and stillness about Holy Saturday — a day out of time — that belies the intense activity of Christ. We do not know what happened in the tomb, but the ancient belief in the harrowing of hell, when Christ descended into the underworld to set free all the righteous who had died before his coming, reminds us that God is at work even when he seems most distant, most unapproachable.

Today we have no sacraments to affirm the bonds between this world and the next, no colour or warmth to assuage our grief, no activity to distract us or give a false sense of security. We are simply waiting, all emotion spent. Most of us live our lives in perpetual Holy Saturday mode, our faith a bit wobbly, our hope a bit frail, but clinging to the cross and Resurrection with an obstinacy wiser than we know. Holy Saturday proclaims to anyone who will listen that when we cannot, God can and does. That is our faith, already tinged with Easter joy and gladness."

That's beautiful niminy

I was actually just starting a blog post on exactly this, so it's given me some more inspiration - thanks!

Your words about Mary - sent shivers right through me.

Ooh, niminy, you've set me off crying again... [watery ]

I was thinking about how Holy Saturday is a lot like all the years I spent as an agnostic - the sense that something big is out there, but out of reach. And I was also contemplating the difference between our waiting in hope and the waiting of the first disciples, which must have felt so hopeless, having seen this man in whom they had put all their hopes and faith killed in so awful and public a way. Did they dare to understand what, after the Resurrection, we can understand in Jesus's more cryptic utterances ('a little while and you will not see me, and then a little while and you will see me' - but did they really think that they'd see him again here on earth in this life)? Everything about how they react after the Resurrection makes me think that they did not. We know that after the agony and the waiting comes the joy of Easter Sunday, but in this waiting are important lessons, I think. I am not a patient person and I find uncertainty unsettling. I could do with taking from today the sense that to wait in faith and hope and trust is OK. That if I have hope and faith then I do not need to feel unsettled by uncertainty, and the way that things appear to be going now is not necessarily the way that they will end up.

Last year I visited the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. It is an incredibly interesting place, but I found it strangely unmoving. My principal thought was 'He is not here'. But today I am thinking that maybe I was thinking about the place in the wrong way - too much 'Sunday' and not enough 'Saturday', as it were. Deep inside the church is the Syrian chapel, which is a bit like a cave - bare stone walls and floor and even the altar, and completely empty (no pictures, no rich cloth, no floor covering, nothing). Thinking about it now, it seems to me to be a 'Saturday place', and it seems right that it should be there at the centre of this bustling, jostling, contested space, as a reminder of the blank face of the stone that closed the tomb that niminy posted about. (And if ever a place needed hope...)

Hello! I've just found you all here. What a fantastic thread - I think I might stay.

I have a few questions about some of your posts on the current passage.

If God turned his face away from Jesus as he hung on the cross, then God didn't die for us, did he?

Was the relationship inherent in the Trinity broken at that point?

If God had to turn his face away when confronted with all the sins of the world, then how come, in the whole history of mankind up to that point, he stayed with us, in infinite patience, never turning his face away, although faced with the sins of the world daily? Is there some degree of sin he can tolerate, just not the whole lot all at once?

Jesus knew that this wasn't the end. He knew the happy ending was coming - otherwise how could he say to the man at his side (in a different gospel) that he would be with him in paradise?

I think the quote from Psalm 22 is a deliberate pointer to that psalm. He didn't have the breath to recite the whole thing (although I'm sure he knew it well enough to) and say "Today this psalm is fulfilled", but that's what he meant. I've not noticed vv7-8 in that psalm before:

All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
"He trust in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

but surely Jesus had them in mind, and vv16-18:

they have pierced my hands and my feet...
...people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

There's so much prophecy about the crucifixion in there!

And then vv25-31 are awesome:

The poor will eat and be satisfied...
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship...

and so on.

The psalm is about perceived abandonment, not real abandonment, isn't it? I don't know if Jesus felt abandoned or not, but his disciples, mother and followers must have done. There's no comment about how Jesus said it - was it in despair, in agony, in compassion? I find it interesting that he refused the painkiller offered (I think that's what the wine and gall was). I don't know why he did that, but I think then as when he said, "My God, my God" he was thinking still of those around him, not of himself.

Hello Charlotte! Great to see you here!

Your question about God turning his face away from Jesus is a really profound one -- and points to some deep differences in the way Christians understand what Jesus did for us on the cross (aka atonement).

I don't think, myself, that God does turn his face from Jesus in that moment. I think that in that moment Jesus knows the despair of those who lose God -- the absolute, desolate loneliness of all those who cry out to God and who have no reply, no sense of God's presence, just the pitiless empty sky above. Most of us have known something like that. I think Jesus goes before us to a place of utter despair so that when we are there he can go with us.

I don't think God 'punishes' Jesus for the sins of the world by withdrawing his presence from him that would be so cruel, and I can't believe in a cruel God. I think God is always there, and he is there with Jesus in his desolation just as he is with us when we feel that he has gone and left us on our own. He is still there, even if we can't feel his presence. Holding onto this is one of the huge challenges of the life of faith.

So I don't think the relationship of the Trinity was broken on the cross, and I do think God died for us. Did Jesus know that is was not the end? As a man, no; as God, he must have. How that worked in practice, I don't know -- it's part of the mystery of the incarnation.

I am sure you are right that the quotation is a deliberate pointer to the psalm. It was one of many psalms written or collected when the Jews were in exile in Babylon a time when they felt that they had been abandoned by the God who had promised to be faithful to them. I've read recently that the amazing thing that the Jews did in their exile was to confront God with their feelings of despair and destitution and abandonment and from those forge a new relationship with God, and a new story about how to be God's covenant people. The abandonment feels real, and so they take it to God and confront him with it in order to reconnect with him. Maybe there is something of that here: Jesus says, to God, why have you abandoned me he is not saying this to nothing, but to the Father.

Thank you to everyone for your posts on this passage I'm finding myself more profoundly moved by this period of waiting than I was by Good Friday, and I think it's because we have entered here so deeply into scripture as if scripture were the Syrian chapel that Tuo described, bare and dark, but filled with the presence of God, and we have entered to encounter the living God.

I'm loving this thread so much!

Alleluia! He is risen! Joy to you all this Easter day!

Matthew 28.1-10

After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. But the angel said to the women, ‘Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples, “He has been raised from the dead, and indeed he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him.” This is my message for you.’ So they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them and said, ‘Greetings!’ And they came to him, took hold of his feet, and worshipped him. Then Jesus said to them, ‘Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.’

It's utterly mindblowing to think about those women and what they saw, isn't it? They went there in grief and mourning and came away in joy and laughter. Reminds me of this part from Isaiah 61, which of course Jesus had claimed in his ministry:

...to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of joy
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.

That's how they must have felt. Alleluia!

Interesting thoughts Charlotte and niminy about the moments on the cross. So profound! I am not sure, but something resonates with me both in what you say about the feelings of abandonment, and also in the weight of sin God somehow not being able to look upon in his holiness, and having to 'turn his face away' - cruel yes, in the sense that Jesus felt abandoned (my God, why have you forsaken me?) - but not an intentioned cruelty - just a pointer to the absolute seriousness of sin. To me, it makes the atonement even more profound - that Jesus did this and was left, for a moment, so felt every burden, every pain, every suffering of every person that ever lived and would lived in that moment - and in that death was defeated. It's a mystery, a beautiful mystery. Maybe one day we will know the ins and outs (well definitely!!) - for now, it's so good to hear different perspectives and appreciate each one.

A blessed Easter Day to you all!

Happy Easter all.

It is difficult to know what Jesus experienced on the cross. I imagine it would be much more profound than I as a human could ever really comprehend but for Jesus as fully human and fully God it must have tested both to the limit. I don't see it as punishment but rather as the ultimate sacrificial expression of love. God loves us so much, literally to death.

I love that he appeared to those faithful women first. I cannot imagine their joy either but they seemed to posses such simple yet deep faiths, I aspire to be like that.

mhd I agree it is all pretty mind blowing. I love it too that the women had a very definite role in witnessing this miraculous event and were told to tell people what they saw and what Jesus had told them.

Happy Easter everyone!

Niminy you are early with this one! Guess you couldn't wait to share the good news ?

I was going to comment on the "God turning his face away" point. David says this a few times in his psalms, I took it to mean he's feeling far from God (usually to do with his sinning, so like a guilty conscience) rather than God not being able to cope with looking at sin. But - you've moved on. I'll have a think about Matt 28, 1 - 10 and comment soon.

We've got a bit out of sync with the passages. Matthew 28 1-10 was last Sunday's gospel but it didn't seem right to put it up earlier in the week. And now we have got to Friday evening because I've been away and out of range of the internet for a few days. Maybe we should go Saturday to Saturday instead?

Anyway, my penn'orth on this passage. I find Matthew so challenging as a whole, and his account of the resurrection is typical of the reasons why I find this gospel so difficult. Instead of the poetic beauty and poignant feeling of John and the wonderful walk to Emmaus in Luke, here we have earthquakes and lightning: it's resurrection as apocalypse. I've just read Matthew all through and it's so full of apocalypse and terror, violence and destruction and end times: his account of the resurrection seems coloured by the general atmosphere of fear and violence that permeates the gospel as a whole.

But the emotions of the scene, joy mixed with fear, seem very true to me. I can imagine the terror of seeing an angel, and even though he says 'do not be afraid' I don't know how you would not be. And it would hardly be believable to hear that Jesus was not in the tomb because he was alive again even if it was the best piece of news that you ever heard, it would still leave you shaking with fear, I think. It's interesting that 'do not be afraid' comes twice in this passage. And signficant that they take hold of Jesus's feet just as he took hold of the disciples feet to wash them -- and of course, they want to touch him to assure themselves that his flesh is really warm and living and solid, and that he really is there.

I wanted to share two things that are not specifically related to an analysis of this passage but seem relevant.

The first is a cartoon that I saw on FB this morning. It made me smile, but in recognition, because it sums up how I lived for most of my adult life.

The second is a poem by e e cummings, which I read first in an anthology which I studied for my English O'level. I remember being told that it was "about the Spring" (which seems deeply limited as an analysis), but it made an impression on me at the time. I've never forgotten it, and have had the third stanza in my head since Sunday.

i thank You God for most this amazing
day: for the leaping greenly spirits of trees
and a blue true dream of sky; and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes

(i who have died am alive again today,
and this is the sun's birthday; this is the birth
day of life and of love and wings: and of the gay
great happening illimitably earth)

how should tasting touching hearing seeing
breathing any--lifted from the no
of all nothing--human merely being
doubt unimaginable You?

(now the ears of my ears awake and
now the eyes of my eyes are opened)

Not really what this thread is for, sorry, but I just wanted to share. (Also, can't work out how to put my picture where I want it, so sorry if the formatting of this is a bit ropey...)