Christian Bible Study

[HoneyandRum]

Welcome everyone to Christian Bible Study week 1. For convenience we are using the Lectionary Gospel reading for each Sunday. Our reading this week is Luke 2:22-40. For anyone without a bible here is the reading, (quite long):

"And when the day came for them to be purified in keeping with the Law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord - observing what is written in the Law of the Lord: Every first-born male must be consecrated to the Lord - and also to offer in sacrifice, in accordance with what is prescribed in the Law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. Now in Jerusalem there was a man named Simeon. He was an upright and devout man; he looked forward to the restoration of Israel and the Holy Spirit rested on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death until he had set eyes on the Christ of the Lord. Prompted by the Spirit he came to the Temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the Law required, he took him into his arms and blessed God; and he said:

Now, Master, you are letting your servant go in peace as you promised;
for my eyes have seen the salvation
which you have made ready in the sight of the nations;
a light of revelation for the gentiles and glory for your people Israel.

As the child's father and mother were wondering at the things that were being said about him, Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, 'Look, he is destined to be a sign that is opposed - and a sword will pierce your soul too - so that the secret thoughts of many may be laid bare.'

There was a prophetess, too, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was well on in years. Her days of girlhood over, she had been married for seven years before becoming a widow. She was now eighty-four years old and never left the Temple, serving God night and day with fasting and prayer. She came up just at that moment and began to praise God; and she spoke of the child to all who looked forward to the deliverance of Jerusalem.

When they had done everything the Law of the Lord required, they went back to Gaililee, to their own town of Nazareth. And as the child grew to maturity, he was filled with wisdom; and God's favour was with him."

(This quote is from The New Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation widely used in English speaking countries. If you have a different translation you would like to post please do, with details of the translation you are using.)

To fellow Christians: This is a place of fellowship, encouragement, gentleness and understanding as sisters and brothers in Christ. To help each other grow in faith, understanding of the scriptures and of each other's faith traditions in a respectful and loving manner.

Please share your reflections, inspirations, thoughts, questions, musings and findings from study here.

Shout out to those who dropped by showing interest in a Bible Study:
niminypiminy, wolfiefan, Dogonabeanbag, StressedHEmum, minniemagoo, lostblonde86, thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts, madhairday, thanksamillion, Loobingler, Tuo, Gingerdodger, ZingSweetApple, Cloutiedumpling, Gingercurl and AMumInScotland !

Would anyone else like to take a turn and post the reading for this week?

Et voila!

Matthew 5:13-20

‘You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot.

‘You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hidden. No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I've always found this passage a bit of a puzzle, to be honest. I think that the first 2 sections are basically talking about the same thing.

Christians act as a preserver in the world. Salt was used to preserve food and stop it from decaying and that's what we should do, act as a sort of moral preservative, if you like. By living according to the Beatitudes,we should make the people around us question their own behaviours and, maybe, keep some of them in check. The light analogy is much the same. By living according to the beatitudes, we should shine a light into the darkness and illuminate the paths, both righteous and unrighteous. Our light should show the way and lead people from darkness to light.

I know what I want to say but I'm not making a very good job of it. When Christians, and the Christian church, live as Christ would have us do, we should stand out from the world round about us and have a direct influence on that world. By doing so, we draw people to God in Christ. If we don't live according to beatitudes, we aren't that much different from anyone else, so we aren't preserving or illuminating anything. And, we won't draw anyone to God.

I think that it's a bit like the verse that says that an unbelieving spouse can be drawn to God just by the example of their partner, if that partner lives a Christlike life. (I wish that would happen in here, but I don't think that I am nearly Christlike enough for that.) The spouse acts as both salt and light, by moderating the behaviour of the whole household and by illuminating the shortcomings of life without God and showing the blessings of life with Him.

I really like the next bit. Jesus came to fulfil the Law or fill it right up to the brim. The whole of the Law points to Him and, as such, by obeying Jesus we are actually obeying the Law in full and living under grace. The warning and caveat is that we actually have to life out our faith from our hearts and that external observation isn't enough. The whole inside/outside of the cup and plate thing. It's not enough just to show up to church on a Sunday, arrange the flowers/make tea/whatever and pay lip-service to faith. God can see what's actually inside us and knows our motivations and our hearts.

I hope some of that actually made any sense at all and I'm really looking forward to reading what other people think about the passage.

This is a hard passage -- there's so much in here, and yet it's full of puzzling, paradoxical statements. Apparently it is a transitional passage which leads on from the blessed future (it comes straight after the Beatitudes) to the demands of being a disciple in the present. (That's what my commentary says.)

I've often pondered over 'you are the salt of the earth'. Do the disciples season the earth, or do they preserve it, or do they clean it (as in salt water to clean a wound)? Do they make the earth better, or do they purge it of what is wrong with it? (I once heard a storyteller tell an English folk tale called Cap o' Rushes about a king with three daughters. He said he would give his kingdom to the one that loved him most, and while the oldest two said 'I love you as much as gold/jewels' the youngest said 'I love you as much as salt loves meat' because food needs salt to be wholesome and savoury of course, she is the one that truly loves him.)

But if the disciples don't step up to the mark then they have 'lost their saltiness' and (but how could salt lose its saltiness -- as so often, Jesus seems to be talking in riddles) should be 'trampled under foot'. Is it that they have been given this tremendous thing, the power to season or preserve or clean, and if they do not use it, they waste it?

A couple of years ago I went through a period where God simply seemed to go away. It was a really terrible time. When I was trying to describe it to someone I said, without consciously thinking of this passage it was like all the salt had disappeared from the world it was savourless and tasteless. Is that what it means for the disciples to be the salt of the earth: that they get their saltiness from God, and unless they use it for the world's good, they are wasting its goodness? And what would it be to waste God's goodness, not to share the grain of salt? Would that be like refusing not just others, but oneself, a share in God's kingdom?

x-post StressedHEMum!

niminy as an aside, they have a very very similar story (to the Cap O' Rushes one) in Romanian that we saw recently at a children's theatre. I hadn't come across it in English! It's called 'Sare in bucate'.

Sorry! Back to the topic...

(milly that's really interesting! The story is also the same as Shakespeare's 'King Lear'!)

I've always taken the 'salt of the earth' to mean the [flavour] enhancers of the earth. The Disciples are to be God flavour of Christianity to those who need it. AFAIK in those days salt could indeed lose its saltiness when it came in contact with wet or sun and so is no longer of use.
Our works are really what will set us apart as Christians in this world.

The image of Jesus being the fulfilment of the Law would have been so enormous for the Pharisees, I think nowadays we have to remember how the chosen people had waited for this day. It can be easy and modern to consider parts of the law no longer applicable but I think here Jesus makes it clear all is still important, even the least of the commandments.
I think the fact the last bit of exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees is about following the law not just with actions but with heart. the Pharisees knew the words of the law better than anyone but only through Jesus can we know and follow the true intent of the law, the fact it was a way of keeping Gods promise.

Loving this thread. Great idea to start it. I think it's a good discipline to read the passage and ponder about it; rather than just sitting and listening in a pew to what someone else says. It is more interactive and is making me think more. Thank you.

I am really finding this helpful too. It's quite a confusing passage but I will try and make some sense of my thoughts.

Salt of the earth kind of reminds me that we are earthly beings, salt is a mineral integral to the earth and so are we. We can enhance the earth by being 'salty' ie living according to our faith, but if we lose this then what we can bring to the Earth is diminished.

Similarly to be the light, its only good if we allow that light to shine out to others.

The last section I probably struggled with most but it is clear Jesus felt he was predestined to be there, not to replace the teachings of God but to fulfill and clarify them, perhaps to get back to basics rather than the additional rules that man imposes through religion. I like the fact that he says whoever breaks the least commandment will be least in heaven but then he goes on to say that unless righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees you will not enter heaven. Is that due to the low opinion he held them in? Did he see them as only outwardly observing their faith?

Niminy I found your description very graphic and thought provoking about when you felt like God wasn't with you like a world without salt.

The last part of this passage (and what follows it in Matt. 5) are quite tough, I think, but I think that a lot might lie in our understanding of what it means to 'fulfil' the Law and the prophets. The Greek word that is translated as 'righteousness' in the last verse is apparently linked to the idea of a covenant. Those people who are 'righteous' are those who are bound by the covenant. But we know that Christ establishes a new covenant, which goes beyond the covenant that God made with Abraham, followed by the Scribes and the Pharisees, establishing a covenant that is for everyone. There's a hint of this in v. 47 when Christ says that 'even the Gentiles' are nice to those who are part of their own group, but that the challenge is to love our enemies - those who are not like us. And this is a particular challenge for the Jews, who had always believed that God's covenant was with them and them alone. So part of Christ's fulfilment of the Law and prophets means extending that covenant to the Gentiles: this is the reason for which he came as a human being. And his challenge to us is to try to embody God's covenant with us in a similar (though on a lesser scale, obviously) way. I think that this is implicit in the injunction to be 'perfect' in the last verse of this chapter, which seems an impossible thing to ask of us, but becomes possible if we remember that the word 'perfect' means 'complete' - in a way it's a synonym of 'fulfilled'. The Greek word here is linked to the idea of telos or ultimate goal. The ultimate goal of Christians is to reflect the way in which Christ himself embodies God's covenant with humanity.

Erm... I may have got a bit carried away there, but I have really struggled to understand this, and I find looking closely at the language (I'm a linguist by training) can help. Do tell me if this is utter codswallop, though!

Tuo that's really helpful. I don't think I'd seen so clearly before how these verses look forward to a future completion.

The other thing that now strikes me afresh, looking at the last verse again, is that the 'kingdom of heaven' isn't a place (it isn't somewhere we can go after death) but a state of being: it's both when God's plans come to fulfilment and the true alignment of earth and heaven. So unless we are righteous, covenant people, who live in the light and hope of the Kingdom, we can't enter it. Maybe it's a bit like when the priest says, as you receive communion, 'the body of Christ keep you in eternal life' because we are already in it through Christ's resurrection. When we are truly covenant people we hasten, and enter into God's Kingdom.

But Gingerdodger you are definitely right about the Pharisees, who are always seen as being more concerned with outward observance than living their faith.

Just dropping in to say that I find this section hard as well. Possibly because it is written for an audience that is harder to access than the other gospels. If we really were to keep all of the OT laws we would be living in a very different world, no mortgages to start with. But we don't keep all those laws about purity because Jesus does fulfil the law.

My take on the saltiness is that it is integral to life and cannot so if something has lost its saltiness its worth has gone and it is discarded. This points to the last days and how there will be judgement which is uncomfortable to hear. But I find comfort in the light imagery in that it is living in Christ that is important.

Just wanted to come back with a more personal reflection on the first part of the passage.

I know that I need to work more on not sticking my lamp under a basket. I was brought up as a 'go-to-church-on-Sunday-never-speak-of-it-the-rest-of-the-week' kind of a Christian. Having had a long time away and having chosen very deliberately to come back in a more whole-hearted and committed way, I still find it hard to talk about my faith in everyday life. I'm working on it, but I like the fact that this reading reminds me that it's important to keep on doing that, to make my faith visible.

And having said that, it has struck me that it may be that there's a contrast between the salt and the light in this passage. Whereas a lamp is always clearly visibly either on or off (unless under a basket, of course...!), salt, once added to food, is invisible, but its presence or absence is immediately obvious on tasting the food. So it could be that this passage is recommending two different ways of acting: invisibly and visibly. It's important that our faith be visible, but it's also important that we be prepared to live out our faith invisibly - that is to say, not asking for earthly recognition and not making a great show of what good Christians we are (and there's presumably a connection here to the next chapter and the description of how to and how not to pray), but simply doing what is required of us to spread God's love in the world.

Tuo thank you for your comments they are very thought provoking. It reminds me of people I know who you can tell have a great prayer life. This is because of the inner beauty that you always sense when around them (the Holy Spirit). My brother who is still atheist/agnostic as far as I know is always very happy to be around some of my oldest Christian friends because they are fun and very loving. It's knowing you are being accepted for yourself and you don't need to be any different. I think prayer will prevent the light from ever being hidden because, as I mentioned those with an intense prayer life seem to act like magnets to those around them. There's a "stickiness" to them, people love them and want to be with them.

With salt, there needs to be a balance - too salty and something is inedible. Not enough and blandness results. So the correct amount heightens the experience and enlivens the senses bringing out what is already there without drawing attention to itself.

I'm going to write my thoughts before I read the others, then I'll probably come back with extras!

I love that two old people are the center of this story. So often the old vare sidelined or their views not tasken very seriously.

And i love the peace that Simeon expresses. He's been promised sight of the Promised One and now he's happy to die, feeling fulfilled and as though his personal circle has been closed. That must be a wonderful feeling.

For me, this is a lesson in patience and waiting for God to give us our needs in his own time. Elsewhere in the Bible it says something about a hundred years being like a moment for God - a bit paraphrased - and this is an example of that to me.

Drat, I commented on the wrong reading. Sorry. . In my defence I've been away on a course this week. Will try toccatch up later. Sorry again.

No apologies necessary Dido! I loved to hear your thoughts, glad you are joining us

I find the challenge to be salt and light difficult. Many people I know have no idea that I am a Christian as I find it difficult to talk about it. I'm afraid of letting God down and people calling me a hypocrite.

Dreaming, I think a lot of us find it difficult to be salt and light. I would imagine that lots of people don't realise that I am Christian, either. It's not the first thing that I say to people when I meet them, for example.

I like to think that the way I life my life makes my faith clear to others without me having to actively go shouting it from the rooftops. The example of the Christian Spouse in 1st Peter is a good one. Just by quietly living out our faith we are an example and can lead people to God in Christ. In saying that, none of us is perfect, but that's why we have Grace, we don't have to be. It doesn't make us hypocrites if we fail to live up to the impossible standards Jesus sets us. They are impossible for a reason.

I think that the salt and light thing is about making the world a better place. Enhancing people's lives just by living out our own, showing them that life with God is so much better than living without him and showing the way to Him.

This week's reading below. Lots to talk about here!

Matthew 5:21-37

‘You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, “You shall not murder”; and “whoever murders shall be liable to judgement.” But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, “You fool”, you will be liable to the hell of fire. So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

‘You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery.” But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell.

‘It was also said, “Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.” But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

‘Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, “You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.” But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be “Yes, Yes” or “No, No”; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Aargh! Have been dreading this one. I'm a divorced, remarried woman, whose first marriage did not end because of adultery. (It was my fault it ended: I was young and unhappy, but I also did not behave very well at all towards my then DH.) I thought of burying my head in the sand and coming back next week, but I think it would be cowardly not to engage... so here I am. I don't have anything remotely intelligent to add now, but I am thinking and will come back to this. Thanks for posting the passage niminy.

Oh this is a difficult one. I read it first and thought that this doesn't sound like the God I know, it sounds so hard, judgemental and unforgiving. So I left it and went away.

When I read it again I read it a bit differently. I thought that maybe it was more about telling us not to judge. In this way it followed on from last weeks about not just being concerned with outward appearance but having to be as good as you can be. So it's in us all to think we might be better than someone else because, in our eyes, we have done less wrong than they have, but really we are all sinners in need of forgiveness.

The part about us judging the murderer rather than forgiving him illustrates this. We think we are better because we haven't murdered but neither have we forgiven so we are still in the wrong and it is no good for us to plead that we are better than someone else.

I wish the passage contained parts about God's forgiveness as taken in isolation it seems very harsh.

I too find this passage difficult. But I think there are ways through it.

The first thing is that there is more about judgement in the NT than we expect and more about love in the OT than we expect too. The God of judgement isn't confined to the OT, nor is the NT God just about fluffy love.

But is judgement bad? Could we know what was wrong and right, good and bad, harmful or beneficial without making a judgement? Judging isn't about 'being judgemental' I think Jesus was against that (thinking of 'let him who is without sin cast the first stone') but about making a right judgement about what is right and what is wrong. And we do have to do this, because life is full of moral decisions, most of which aren't black and white. And when people behave wrongly and cruelly, should there be no judgement about what they have done?

Someone, I think it might have been Rowan Williams, described God's judgement as being known, absolutely truly and without any possibility of hiding anything, and having all your actions (the ones you admit to, the ones you've convinced yourself never even happened) known. Who can stand that searching gaze? Who looks forward to a judgement?

But with God, judgement is always tempered by mercy: we are known but we are also loved. As in a family, the fact that we are loved doesn't mean we shouldn't be judged when your children push their boundaries, we sometimes have to make them take the consequences, even though we love them so much we would give our lives for them. It's the same with God. Just because we don't hear about mercy in this passage doesn't mean it isn't there it's always there. Thank God!

I've got stuff to say about divorce and the world Jesus is speaking into here, and swearing and stuff, but I'll come back later and have a say about that.

This is a difficult passage, but one thing it does is remind me about the seriousness of sin and the importance of being sanctified/made holy. It makes all the 'cheap grace' arguments void really, because while God is a God of forgiveness I also think there is an expectation for God's followers to be like Jesus. I know if we all took this literally none of us would have eyes or limbs but it should perhaps give us pause for thought: Is that throwaway comment about a fit bloke simply that, or is it invading our thoughts to the point where it is to the detriment of our own marriage or relationship with God?

As for divorce, this is a painful passage I know. I think it's important to remember that Jesus was speaking into a time and society where divorce was too easy, and men divorced their wives when they just fancied a newer model, or if their wife got annoying, or ill, or anything at all really. A lot of Jesus' concern about divorce was actually concern for cast off women, who would largely become destitute through the shame of it, so not only cast of by her husband but by her whole family, with no welfare state to rely on, and probably having to leave any children behind. Jesus was asking people to put a much higher value on marriage, so that women would be safe in their homes and not cast out with nothing.

How we apply that to today is another matter really. I just know that God is merciful and redeems the bad stuff, so people like Tuo can come into something wonderful in their new lives with the old gone, forgiven and forgotten. God is compassionate and just, and we need to apply that lens to this passage as well as the lens of what the society was like.