Christian Bible Study

[HoneyandRum]

Welcome everyone to Christian Bible Study week 1. For convenience we are using the Lectionary Gospel reading for each Sunday. Our reading this week is Luke 2:22-40. For anyone without a bible here is the reading, (quite long):

"And when the day came for them to be purified in keeping with the Law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord - observing what is written in the Law of the Lord: Every first-born male must be consecrated to the Lord - and also to offer in sacrifice, in accordance with what is prescribed in the Law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. Now in Jerusalem there was a man named Simeon. He was an upright and devout man; he looked forward to the restoration of Israel and the Holy Spirit rested on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death until he had set eyes on the Christ of the Lord. Prompted by the Spirit he came to the Temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the Law required, he took him into his arms and blessed God; and he said:

Now, Master, you are letting your servant go in peace as you promised;
for my eyes have seen the salvation
which you have made ready in the sight of the nations;
a light of revelation for the gentiles and glory for your people Israel.

As the child's father and mother were wondering at the things that were being said about him, Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, 'Look, he is destined to be a sign that is opposed - and a sword will pierce your soul too - so that the secret thoughts of many may be laid bare.'

There was a prophetess, too, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was well on in years. Her days of girlhood over, she had been married for seven years before becoming a widow. She was now eighty-four years old and never left the Temple, serving God night and day with fasting and prayer. She came up just at that moment and began to praise God; and she spoke of the child to all who looked forward to the deliverance of Jerusalem.

When they had done everything the Law of the Lord required, they went back to Gaililee, to their own town of Nazareth. And as the child grew to maturity, he was filled with wisdom; and God's favour was with him."

(This quote is from The New Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation widely used in English speaking countries. If you have a different translation you would like to post please do, with details of the translation you are using.)

To fellow Christians: This is a place of fellowship, encouragement, gentleness and understanding as sisters and brothers in Christ. To help each other grow in faith, understanding of the scriptures and of each other's faith traditions in a respectful and loving manner.

Please share your reflections, inspirations, thoughts, questions, musings and findings from study here.

Shout out to those who dropped by showing interest in a Bible Study:
niminypiminy, wolfiefan, Dogonabeanbag, StressedHEmum, minniemagoo, lostblonde86, thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts, madhairday, thanksamillion, Loobingler, Tuo, Gingerdodger, ZingSweetApple, Cloutiedumpling, Gingercurl and AMumInScotland !

This passage always puts me in mind of an episode in the place where I worked a long time ago. It was a Christian bookshop in Holland and it was known that I went to a communion service every Tuesday evening. Well, I'd had an argument with one of my colleagues (no idea what it was about, 6 of one...) but my colleague came up to me just before closing and said:"I just want to make up the argument because I know you won't be able to take communion if I don't" Never forgotten that.

Hi all, i just saw this thread and would love to join. I just have finish something and will be back. Thanks OP for starting the bible study thread. Have to read the it all so it will take a while before i post..

It reminds me that God's standards are so high that none of us can ever meet them, and it is only through grace that we are saved.

This is a hard, hard passage, but I think that you have to look at the historical context here as well as the spiritual. Like Mad, I think that Jesus main concern with marriage was the fate of women who were put away. He wanted marriage to be sacred and important to people so that a husband wouldn't just abandon his wife at the drop of a hat.

A lot of the rest of it is, I think, to show us how impossible a standard God has sent us and how we all fall short all the time. There is no degree or hierarchy of sin and we cannot judge others because we are just as bad as they are and in equal need of grace and salvation.

There's also a hard message for our sexualised world, where desire is regarded as an expression of your truest self, and curbs on desire are felt to be wrong and unjustly repressive, that desire is life-giving but also dangerous, and that allowing our desire to flow freely where it will has consequences for us, as well as other people.

As with all choices, choosing one person means saying no to all the other choices all the other people you might desire in your lifetime, all the casual flirtatious and flings and affairs. And as madhairday says! where's the dividing line between eyeing someone up and doing damage to your vow to be faithful? Sometimes it is very hard to see until after you've crossed it. It's hard because it's hard to say no to anything you want, and the culture we live in makes it seem morally right for us to say yes all the time 'because I'm worth it'. I think I see this passage about tearing your eye out rather than looking at someone with lust as being about how hard it is to abide by the choices you've made, and how hard it is to say no to yourself, but how high the costs are of saying yes.

I think the passage shows how we all sin, we are all fallible. Even if we don't act on our thoughts they can be part of us, being wrong at heart is still wrong. Blaming others, putting ourself above others, is wrong.

It is only through Christ we can be redeemed and our hearts be put right.

Completely agree, niminy. I think this passage is a firm reminder that we have to work hard to keep ourselves in check and of the "sacrifices" that we have to make to live Christlike lives. It all ties in with living the beatitudes.

it also reminds us, I think, that living happy, or blessed, lives in Christ is a very different thing from living what the world would view as happy - having your desires fulfilled etc.

Thanks stressedHEmum: I definitely agree that reading this in the context of the Beatitudes helps. And I guess it's also in a similar vein to the later passage about not trying to take the mote out of your brother's eye before you've dealt with the plank in your own; that is to say, about being realistic about our own shortcomings and not too hasty to judge others. I've read that Matthew's Gospel was primarily directed at a Jewish audience, so part of the message may be an attack on complacency, along the lines of 'Don't think you're necessarily superior to anyone else just because you're God's "chosen people"'. But of course that applies just as well to anyone: it's very easy to say 'I haven't killed anyone; I haven't committed adultery' or whatever, and to conveniently fail to see the myriad ways in which we constantly fall short of the standard God sets us - the standard modelled for us by Christ.

And, while it does focus on judgement, the passage also offers us a model of reconciliation (also so beautifully modelled in Oma's story). God doesn't set us impossibly high standards and then sit back and wait for us to fail. Rather, He sets us standards which stretch and challenge us, which He knows we will find difficult to live up to, but He supports us in trying to achieve them, picks us up when we fall, continues to offer us positive guidance, and - quite simply - forgives us when we mess it all up. But in return we have to be prepared to show forgiveness ('forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us'). We cannot expect God to forgive us but not the murderer, the adulterer, or whatever... We don't have the right to say 'these sins are forgiveable, but these other sins are not'. If we believe in a God who 'forgives all who truly repent', then we have to accept that in that 'all' may be people we would prefer to keep at arm's length - whom we'd rather not imagine living on the next cloud to us in Heaven (not that I imagine Heaven like that, but metaphorically-speaking...).

In my own case, I have, as far as is possible, made my peace with myself (I'm not in touch with XH, so can't make my peace with him - and maybe it's unrealistic to expect that of him) about what happened in my first marriage. I accept the blame for the things that I did wrong at that time, and I believe that, not because I deserve it but because He is infinite mercy, God could be willing to forgive me. The thing that I find harder is the idea that my second marriage and my two amazingly beautiful DDs are somehow founded on sin. I don't think there's an easy answer to that. I wasn't a practising Christian when I met DH2 and had my DDs, so certainly wasn't thinking about this passage at the time! But this is where I am, and I kind of take the view that - since going back, even if I wanted to, is impossible - all I can do is to go forward from here with hope.

Tuo I've been thinking and praying about your post.

Although my marriage to DH is my first, it's not my first marriage-like relationship. I lived with someone for several years before we split up in a very painful way -- partly because we were so unsuited to each other, and partly because I'd behaved stupidly and cruelly towards him, punishing him because he wasn't right for me. So I'm not divorced, technically, but really I am. And when you say that your second marriage and your beautiful children are founded on sin, I too think that everything I have now is founded on my stupidity and cruelty of the past.

Well, it is and it isn't. We're all dogged by sin (or what Francis Spufford calls HPtFtU - human propensity to fuck things up). I didn't have to be so stupidly, almost bloody-mindedly cruel to my XP, but I was, and I kept on doing it even though I knew it was wrong. And he was horrible to me in return. Although I can't wipe out the things I've done, and I expect that one day I'll have to bear God's searching gaze as he looks at all of it, even the things I've never admitted to anybody. But all human happiness is also founded on grace and mercy: God's forgiveness freed me to begin the process of changing. I, too, by the grace of God, have a second life, in which, by the grace of God, I have the marriage and children I have now. (Mind you, I haven't beaten, and don't ever expect to beat HPtFtU.) But as MHD says so wisely, grace isn't cheap, but dearly given to us. I think the only proper, and grateful response to grace given is to go forward in hope.

Thank you, niminy, for sharing and for your wise words. Yes, I am so so grateful for my second chance, for my DDs, for my DH (and we've been together nearly 22 years, through good and ill), and for the chance to go forward in hope. Thank you!

Sorry for monopolising the thread, but I wanted to come back and look at this from a different angle which also interests me.

I was thinking about vv.29-30 and wondering if these could be read as part of a 'body politic' analogy, not as the primary meaning, because it seems clear that Jesus is addressing individuals here; but at a secondary level which is not detached from the primary one. So if we are to be 'perfect' as individuals (that is, fulfilled, completed) we need other people around us; hence the emphasis in this passage - and right through to the end of the chapter - on relationships with others and working to make these right. The image of the body politic is an image of the interconnectedness of every individual within a community and their essential contribution to the working of the whole. But it's also an image which encompasses difference, because just as in the body an eye is for seeing, a hand is for picking stuff up, and a foot is for walking, so in the community people have different roles to fulfil, all of which contribute to the whole. So part of the meaning of this passage could be about thinking about the impact that our behaviour (for good or ill) has on those around us and by extension on the whole community in which we live, and about how we could contribute better. I don't know if this is implicit here, but certainly for some thinkers, the idea that the good of the community of a whole takes precedence over the good of the individuals within the community is taken as read, so the idea of cutting off a hand in order to save the body as a whole would not be such an unusual (or gruesome) one as it might appear.

(This morning's sermon didn't help at all with this passage at all, as our preacher chose to preach on the Epistle instead!)

Lurking, not shirking. You all sound so learned, I'm not sure I've got much to add. The bit about cutting out/off body parts, though, I take to mean not doing something unholy, even if it's something you're fond of, good at etc You have to cut it out of your life. Particularly relevant to the verses above, I used to enjoy flirting and the attention it got me from men. This scripture teaches that it's not good Christian witness, though in the view of the world, it's harmless fun. These days I aim to get my approbation from God. Hard habit to break though, good to have reminders like this.

I'm divorced and remarried as well, Tuo, although my husband had numerous OW. I lived with my current husband before we got married, though, and I just have to trust that God has forgiven me .

I'm in a situation which makes me think that I won't be able, in good conscience, to take communion next time. I am finding it very difficult to forgive someone for their treatment of me. They know how much hurt they have caused but refuse to apologise because they don't think that they have done anything wrong. I am angry and upset and don't seem able to put it behind me, even though I have prayed about it a lot.

I would just view them as lacking in knowledge stressed.

You can't blame them for what they don't know or understand, can't hold them accountable. Just have to sit back and wait for them to catch up!

cheapskatemum please don't feel you have nothing to add! Everybody's contribution to the discussion is really valuable. I think you are absolutely right that flirting and suchlike is a habit I hadn't thought of it like that. And that's one of the problems with sin, isn't it, that it's habitual behaviour (or sometimes it is) and that's why it's so hard to stop . I often feel like I say the same things to God during confession week after week He must be bored! -- and I take baby steps towards not doing the things I do.

Stressed that is a horrible situation to be in. Giving something to God to look after and letting him sort out the other person is so, so hard sometimes. I have definitely had times in my life where I have really struggled with this too. You will be in my prayers this week.

This week's passage:

Matthew 6:25-end

‘Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, “What will we eat?” or “What will we drink?” or “What will we wear?” For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

‘So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today’s trouble is enough for today.

I love this passage nimi. What i find baffling is for as long as i can remember, preachers have always quoted the one verse " seek you first His kingdom and righteousness and everything shall be added unto you. If you are from Africa then this is very misleading and confusing. We were made to believe that every child of God deserves riches[ i believe God wants us to be able to manage financially and out of debt]. But getting rich is not the be it all.

I truely believed that if i served God and did good then all the money i needed would come forth eg i would get a miraculous call from a CEO of a company telling me God had told him to give me a job. Oh ignorance and innocence coupled together make for a very naive christian.We grew up poor by the way. Suffice to say God in His infinite love and care blessed me financially but i still felt something missing. It was many years later than i read the whole passage and something clicked.

The way i understood it was there was absolutely nothing that i could do to make God love me more or less. That His love for us was already written in stone before we had been formed in our mothers womb. I understood that by worrying i was taking things into my own hands[i still worry though sometimes] and that i needed to trust God more, not just for big things but for small things as well. Difficult in pracice but easy in theory. My Dh who is not saved knows how to not worry about things he can't change. I used to think he did not care but one day he threw that verse in my face without even knowing the verse that i felt i needed to do the same. Still not easy but i continue to trust God day by day.

I have one question though. What exactly did Jesus mean when He said " you of little faith". Can someone enlighten me? Thanks.

One of my favourite passages too! I am not, by nature a worrier, but there have been times in my life when stress has almost got the better of me and these words have been a great comfort. I can also honestly say that, since taking on board the message I understand from this teaching - trust God to give you all that you need - He has.

StressedHEmum - have you prayed for the other person as well? I know it's a horrible position to be in. I try & remember "judge not lest ye be judged" and the scripture about he that humbles himself shall be exalted & he that doesn't shall be abased (sorry, chapter & verse often elude me)

Niminypiminy - thanks for your understanding. Yes, old habits die hard. At least I am not "lacking in Knowledge" as Capsium puts it, that's got to be a first small step!

As a worrier this is a message I need to take on much more.

Cheap, yes, I have prayed for the other person as well. Now I just have to leave it to God. I'm just sad because I've had to give up something that I really love and am very good at because of this person. However, what's for you won't go by you, so perhaps this is part of God's plan for me and just another challenge to see through. Closely linked to this week's reading, I think.

I love this passage. I think that it has so much to say to us about how we live and about how we should rely on God to see us through. I often thing of this passage along with the verses where we are told that God won't test us beyond what we can bear and that we can do all things in Christ.

I don't think that it means that God will give you stuff, I think that it means that God will help you to be content with things if you stop worrying and lean first on Him. If we are focused on Him and our service to Him, we will be happy with having our needs met (Having food and raiment, let us be therewith content) and not feel the need to chase after material things. Having a lot of stuff can distance us from God, I think, and we can become more self reliant, believing, perhaps, that we have earned things through our own merit, rather than that God has blessed us.

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof is one of my favourite verses and one of the wisest things that Jesus is recorded as saying.

I think that when He says "Oh, ye of little faith", he means that you need really strong faith the rely on God and that by worrying about food/clothing etc. you are missing the big picture and being distracted by the material world. If we trust in God more, suddenly that new pair of shoes or nice steak for dinner doesn't seem so important because our basic needs are met.

stressed i agree with you. I also felt at the time i got saved that God and His love for us represented much more than material things, that this verse meant we had to trust Him to provide for everything in our lives, be it peace, patience and all the fruits of the Holy Spirit. One thing i am grateful for is being given the opportunity to experience the European way of life.
That being the case Africa is so buried deep in poverty and suffering that i feel too many preachers are misleading the people. The gospel has become so much about what God can give you, marriages,children,financial security[i am not against all this by the way] that the true meaning of the gospel is getting lost amongst the people's expectations of a better life materially as opposed to spiritually.
All i heard back home was how God wanted to bless me, and if you are a new christian trying to find your way spiritually it is heartbreaking. I always felt there was more to christianity than what i was being fed and when i started searching i realised i was not even close to finding my way. I left the RC church and joined a pentecostal one and the gospel became different. I was then told it is very much possible to serve God faithfully for your entire life without having much materially and that God basically is interested in our hearts nothing else. If He so chooses to bless us then so be it..

So, back to that verse, i want more of God. But what does that even mean? I want to have trust in Him and faith that can move mountains, how does one get there? I know i will find answers to all these questions but my word its not easy..

Talking about material things. Where i come from they have what is called a pastors appreaciation day. This day is when someone preaches[guit trip] people into appreaciating the pastor with yes, money. I have not seen this in the bible, maybe i missed the verse. Last time it happened it was right here in Europe. The pastor was leaving the church so her last day became her appreaciation day. She called me personally to tell me it was her last day and she would appreaciate it if i came. By that time i had left the church. Of course when igot there i walked in to the senior pastor of the church telling people that it was now the time for us to show how much we appreaciated her. He told us of all the times she prays for "her church" and everything she had done for us. It left a bitter taste in my mouth. Not once was Jesus talked about. That verse was also quoted somewhere. I just gave but my heart was not in it. Such has become the gospel these days and no wpnder why there is so much confusion and lack of contentment. We call it the gospel of self or prosperity.

Thanks though for putting that verse because i have been thinking a lot and maditating on it...

I want to have trust in Him and faith that can move mountains, how does one get there? I know i will find answers to all these questions but my word its not easy..

This reminds me of the Ron Sexsmith song "Gold in them Hills" - YouTube clip below.

and this (Believe it when I see it)

Very apt verse for me this week. Thanks niminy

Blessed, very interestng what you say about Africa. Which country did you live in? dh visits East Africa fairly regularly on teaching trips to train church leaders. He is off to DRC tomorrow. He has come across the sort of thing you say, but also always comes back amazingly humbled by people's faith in the midst of some of the most horrendous circumstances - his trip to South Sudan especially brought this home.

I think I've seen it as true in my life, that seeking God's kingdom first somehow brings other things into place - not that I will be rich (I really hate the whole prosperity gospel thing) but that things somehow seem - I don't know, in perspective, right, and enough.

I always like to tie in this verse with Philippians 4v4 - 'do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and petition present your requests to God, and the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.' :)