Christian Bible Study

[HoneyandRum]

Welcome everyone to Christian Bible Study week 1. For convenience we are using the Lectionary Gospel reading for each Sunday. Our reading this week is Luke 2:22-40. For anyone without a bible here is the reading, (quite long):

"And when the day came for them to be purified in keeping with the Law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord - observing what is written in the Law of the Lord: Every first-born male must be consecrated to the Lord - and also to offer in sacrifice, in accordance with what is prescribed in the Law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. Now in Jerusalem there was a man named Simeon. He was an upright and devout man; he looked forward to the restoration of Israel and the Holy Spirit rested on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death until he had set eyes on the Christ of the Lord. Prompted by the Spirit he came to the Temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the Law required, he took him into his arms and blessed God; and he said:

Now, Master, you are letting your servant go in peace as you promised;
for my eyes have seen the salvation
which you have made ready in the sight of the nations;
a light of revelation for the gentiles and glory for your people Israel.

As the child's father and mother were wondering at the things that were being said about him, Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, 'Look, he is destined to be a sign that is opposed - and a sword will pierce your soul too - so that the secret thoughts of many may be laid bare.'

There was a prophetess, too, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was well on in years. Her days of girlhood over, she had been married for seven years before becoming a widow. She was now eighty-four years old and never left the Temple, serving God night and day with fasting and prayer. She came up just at that moment and began to praise God; and she spoke of the child to all who looked forward to the deliverance of Jerusalem.

When they had done everything the Law of the Lord required, they went back to Gaililee, to their own town of Nazareth. And as the child grew to maturity, he was filled with wisdom; and God's favour was with him."

(This quote is from The New Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation widely used in English speaking countries. If you have a different translation you would like to post please do, with details of the translation you are using.)

To fellow Christians: This is a place of fellowship, encouragement, gentleness and understanding as sisters and brothers in Christ. To help each other grow in faith, understanding of the scriptures and of each other's faith traditions in a respectful and loving manner.

Please share your reflections, inspirations, thoughts, questions, musings and findings from study here.

Shout out to those who dropped by showing interest in a Bible Study:
niminypiminy, wolfiefan, Dogonabeanbag, StressedHEmum, minniemagoo, lostblonde86, thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts, madhairday, thanksamillion, Loobingler, Tuo, Gingerdodger, ZingSweetApple, Cloutiedumpling, Gingercurl and AMumInScotland !

Nothing clever to add, but enjoying following the discussion here and mulling over this passage.

I too really identify with St Peter. I hope that I get chance to hang out with him, when we are all in heaven. I think St Paul is always going to be a bit too grown up for me!

I love the simplicity of the language used first by the Father, and then by Jesus - and then the simplicity of Jesus's touch too. Amid such an amazing scene, with all the questions that must have been going though their minds, the language is really very simple, as God reaches out in word and gesture to touch the disciples

This week in our bible study group we were looking at the bible (it's a group for new believers/seekers so we're covering some of the basics) and one of the points was how the bible, although made up of many books and written by many writers, is a consistent story. I think this passage kind of confirms that with these all appearing together and kind of tying it all up.

Does anyone know whether the message translation is closer about monument/dwelling place because it's a really interesting spin?

Good question, Millie. According to this site which breaks down the Greek word by word, the word is 'skene' which means either a tent or a stage (it's the root of the modern English 'scene'). This is then translated into the Vulgate as 'tabernaculum', which implies a reference to the portable tent where, before the construction of the Temple, Jews thought that the presence of God resided (then used by extension to refer to the Temple itself, and by further extension to any shrine). So it seems to me that the Message translation may get closer to the original meaning. As a reaction, 'Let's build a shrine to you, Moses and Elijah' seems more understandable than 'Let's put up a tent for each of you'... though it doesn't undermine the wonderful humanity of Peter's desire to do something to mark this momentous occasion.

If this is the meaning, then it really reinforces what others have said about why a shrine would be inappropriate. Jesus' presence on earth is not marvellous but intangible like the presence of God in the Jewish Tabernacle - not something which has to be kept separate from mere human beings under some kind of a tent (and I think that this works in two ways, doesn't it? (I'm sure others know more than I do about the OT...) On the one hand, there's the sense that human beings might 'sully' the amazing presence of God, but on the other there's the sense that to experience God directly would be dangerous (I'm thinking of Uzzah, for example). But this Christ, this new presence of God in the world, couldn't be more different. Jesus is all about experiencing our world directly, being in it with us and for us. He doesn't need to be put under a tent to protect him from us or us from him, because he came precisely to stand alongside us in the reality of our lives. That's another reason why the moment when he touches the disciples is so breathtaking - because the shared touch is a clear sign of Jesus' humanity, and yet... there he was just a second before talking to Moses and Elijah. There's no passage (I think) that sums up better the coexistence in Christ of humanity and divinity, the miracle of God made man.

And of course it's significant that Peter should witness the Transfiguration, because this happens immediately after his acknowledgement that Christ really is the Messiah. I don't know if we're meant to read it like that, but the juxtaposition almost makes it read as if the Transfiguration happens because of Peter's Confession - almost as a 'reward' for getting the answer to that question right! It's certainly hard to imagine Jesus showing himself in this way before having received the answer to this question. And, as niminy points out, there's a clear parallel with Jesus' baptism, where Jesus is first recognised by John and then God's voice is heard saying (almost) the exact same words that are heard in this episode - but in both cases it's the human recognition that follows the divine revelation.

Blessed - Peter is a wonderful name (it's the name of someone close to me, too), and Peter is a wonderful character...

Sorry - got interrupted halfway through that and punctuation went a bit doo-lally!

Love what you've said about the tent/shrine Tuo, not thought about it like that before.

Loving your interpretation Tuo. We are struggling with a name for our little man and i love Peter and the meaning is fabulous. However, here where i live he will be called something totally different, Pe for perm, then Ter for Terence.

Ah yes, BA - difficult when living abroad. What about an alternative , like Pierre, or Piers, or Pietro, or Pedro...? (Love choosing baby names!)

Realise too that my last sentence in my long post is back-to-front. Should say: 'in both cases it's the human recognition that precedes the divine revelation. Brain not all there today!

When I read this passage, I was reflecting on how this scene is a way for Jesus to change the perception of who God is to the disciples. They think God is dangerous and mighty and they can't look at him, but Jesus wants them to see that it doesn't need to be like that anymore, that He is now accessible and part of their lives, just as He wants to be for us. Although we take for granted now that this is how it should be, I wonder if the disciples would be a bit reluctant because they would miss the powerful God of the old testament. So this is a way of Jesus showing them that both, all, are in agreement with this new order.

I don't mean Jesus is not powerful, just that he is not the angry/ jealous/ retributional God of the books of the law!

The thing that I like best about this passage is that it shows how Jesus is the culmination of everything the Jews hole dear. He is with the Law and the Prophets. He is a sort of meeting place for them. In Him, the Law and the Prophets come together and are perfected.

The humanity of it all is beautiful. Peter doesn't know what he should do, but he wants to do something. But Jesus tells him just to stop, and the voice of God tells him to listen. Sometimes, it's hard not to rush into action but to listen to God and just stop in His presence.

When Jesus touches him, it's very moving. He is fully God but also fully human, showing, I think, a new way to relate to God. Rather than being afraid to be in His presence, we can now look on him, speak to him and just be with Him all the time.

I was thinking about this, this morning. Jesus face and whole being were changed by the presence of God. He became radiant. Moses, also, became radiant in the presence of God, he was so bright that he had to hide his face behind a veil.

We should be a bit like that. Changed and brightened by the presence of God in our lives. God's light should shine out of us - not as brightly as it did for Jesus and Moses, but still brightly enough that people can see Him in us.

stressed I really like that. We had a sermon on this passage today, and the preacher said that faith isn't about agreeing with particular statements, it's a transformation of your relationship with the world, so that you metaphorically see with new eyes and hear with new ears. Jesus transfigures the world for us (or something like that, anyway).

I had to read this passage in church this morning, and it felt quite a momentous thing to do, because it has become so much richer and more meaningful with all our discussions.

This week's passage:

Matthew 4.1-11

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. He fasted for forty days and forty nights, and afterwards he was famished. The tempter came and said to him, ‘If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.’ But he answered, ‘It is written,
“One does not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.” ’

Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, saying to him, ‘If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,
“He will command his angels concerning you”,
and “On their hands they will bear you up,
so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.” ’
Jesus said to him, ‘Again it is written, “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” ’

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour; and he said to him, ‘All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Away with you, Satan! for it is written,
“Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.” ’
Then the devil left him, and suddenly angels came and waited on him.

I think it is interesting concerning the symbolism of stones in the Bible. I think elsewhere a person's heart is described as being stony and there is stony ground in Jesus' parable of the sower and the seed. I think you don't want to change 'stones' born out of bitterness into physical food or spiritual food.

On the subject of food I think it interesting that Jesus is placed in a manger, after His birth, a feeding trough for animals.

Extremely relevant passage for me as I'm not good at all at resisting temptation. So much has been written about this, I imagine I'll struggle to think of anything original. Blessed I love your thoughts on the last passage.

Thanks cheapskate

It occurs to me how much better Jesus copes with temptation than Eve does! Despite being famished and alone, whereas Eve is well-fed and never far from Adam, Jesus speaks with complete authority and doesn't waver once.

This passage sets the pattern, which we see all through Jesus's ministry, of Jesus spending time alone with God before and after he does or says something important. So before he starts his ministry he goes off for an extended period.

Somebody was telling me the other day about the desert in the holy land, about how it's very near to Jerusalem, but also seems like another world, and how the light there is very bright and clear. I think of Jesus spending 40 days fasting there (whether it was a literal 40 days, or whether 40 was put in by the gospel writers because it's a significant number, I don't know), and how hard it is to spend extended periods of time in that clear light, in a place where God is so near.

And I also think that for Jesus to do what he is going to go on to do, it's as if he has to make the sacrifices of all that he might have first. He's going to go out into the world and pour himself out, totally give himself up for humankind. This time in the desert is his preparation, when he has to face up to his choices. Will he use his power for himself, or will he give it away? Will he become a kind of magician, turning stones into bread, or will he use his miraculous powers only as a sign to point to God? Will he save himself or will he give himself? Will he test God, or will he trust God?

Those are hard, hard things. I think of Satan/the devil here as being picture-language for the reality of the temptations that Jesus is offered. And at the end of the passage, when Jesus is surrounded by angels, that too is picture-language: when someone has spent that time with God, and has fought hard spiritual battles, and has come through them by the grace of God, they are changed deep within and though that change is intangible, it is also perceptible. We know it when we meet it: someone who is deeply connected to God is someone it does us good to be with though they might never mention God to us, though they might themselves be tired or ill, yet somehow they refresh us from the springs of living water.

nimi wow. So profound. I came to post something but read your post first and now can not remember what it was i was going to say. Good word sister. I am going to sit this one out and hear what the others have to say. I have heard so much about this verse that i find it really refreshing to read[nimi]'s post which is totally different. Many preachers say a lot about this verse but never actually tear it apart to examine the actions of Jesus in it. I am glad to hear of other interpretations and will keep meditating on it.

What makes me here is the devil quoting the word of God to Jesus. More like us selling ice to the eskimos maybe. Quoting what God had already said about Himself back to Him. Jesus was that word. Did the devil think he could outsmart the word made flesh?. Right!!

Come to think of it the devil does misuse still the word of God to mislead children of God into doing what he wants. Atheists who know the word like the back of their hands but refuse to acknowledge it only want to argue their way into convincing believers that God is non existant. Jesus keeps his cool, how i wish i would keep my cool when confronted by some funny people and their beliefs. I do keep my cool on the outside but boiling on the inside..

I just think of Chapter 2 of Corinthians regarding the "funny people and their beliefs", Blessed.

my MIL comes to mind. Apparently Jesus had a girlfriend,Mary. She is 100% convinced about this and i thought she was joking.

Oh the gnostic texts I find interesting, strange, humorous and funny all at the same time. They didn't make it to our Bible though. I remind myself people were writing all sorts of things down then, as they do today.

I think facing this, you have to concentrate on Christ's message and that takes some study and reflection in itself.

^that should be humorous and sad. Typo.

Just read through as haven't been on a while. Loving all the discussion and love niminys thoughts about the temptations, esp interesting about the harsh light etc in the desert.

We often talk about 'desert experiences' don't we, the whole dark night of the soul thing, where God seems so distant and things seem so dry. I wonder if God felt distant to Jesus in the desert, or if actually, he felt sustained by the presence of God - that is what kept him going? Maybe he couldn't feel God as he was 'blocked' by the temptations/the devil, but it was still God's presence which sustained him - and that is the same for us - that even when we don't feel it, when we feel most under attack, God is most present, most sustaining. We just don't feel it. I've certainly found this.

None of my 'desert experiences' could even come close to 40 days and nights in a harsh place with no food and being tempted by the devil himself though....

Liking the thoughts about stones, too. There's a passage somewhere talking about praising God, saying that even if mouths stay closed, the stones will cry out....interesting.

Hi, I have been lurking from the start of this thread but have not really felt I had anything to contribute. I don't even know if this makes any sense either, but here goes.

I heard a comment of this text by an orthodox theologian a while back which I found quite interesting and helpful. He said that the temptations Jesus faced are the same that we are faced with. The devil told Jesus to prove who he was by turning stones into bread. As Christians, how often are we not asked if God exists, why are there so many starving people in the world? Why doesn’t God feed them? The second temptation, during which Jesus is challenged to throw himself off the top of temple, can be compared with us being asked why we pray since “God clearly doesn’t answer prayer/perform miracles” and therefore does not exist. Finally, the third temptation is about seeking celebrity status for oneself and self-aggrandisement. It is a twisting, a perversion, of the desire we all have to be liked and loved. I find this one particularly apt in today’s fame-seeking, celebrity-craving society that equates popularity with love and where so many people measure their “success” by how many “likes” they get on Facebook or by their number of followers on Twitter.

How often how we not found ourselves challenged by people and wished that God would provide a handy miracle, or that we could come up with some clever reply that disrobes our opponent and "shows them for what they really are" while also proving that we are right and they are WRONG? But Jesus doesn’t do this because ultimately, the temptations are about pride and our propensity for self-importance, and Jesus understood. He knew that while walking among with us, his role was to glorify the Father, not to seek glory for himself and he was able to do what Eve and Adam had not and what we so often are not able to do either. He told the devil to get lost.

I find this passage comforting in a way, because I am sure these temptations were not easy for Jesus to resist. If we believe that he was 100% man as well as 100% God, he must have felt a desire to show that taunting devil who he REALLY was dealing, if only to wipe that slimy smirk off his face, but that would have meant succumbing. If he had come out guns blazing as it were, the devil would have won.

However, for me is shows me that resisting temptation isn’t about stoically fighting against my desires. It’s about submitting my desires and will to God’s will, which is actually somewhat different. Not easy. I haven’t even managed to walk the first foot of that path, but I know that he knows what temptation is and why I struggle and too often fail. And with God’s grace I may one day start to realise the extent of his love and to understand that giving up my self-centredness is not to wipe myself out of existence; it is to find the life I was designed to truly live.

(Please ignore if I've written rubbish.)