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To not want to be a Muslim

499 replies

Lostagain · 10/06/2012 22:40

Ok so I am a Muslim, have 2 dd and married dh is a convert to Islam....
Anyway from a young age I have had a strong pull towards Christianity or aspects of it. I don't believe Jesus is the son of god, but do believe he will return again etc.
Is it a cultural thing? I was born and brought up in the uk, went to a cofe school for a few years then we went to a inner city which was full of Asians- I am Asian but it was horrible, I hated it. Despite this I still sang on the school choir, certain people were horrified at the time, but my mum supported me. In my teens i went a bit religion mad and started wearing a headscarf etc- didn't last long,
i love Christmas and Easter, I sing hymms when I'm washing upHmm i've been to a few church's in my time, funerals weddings etc and to be honest it's so peaceful there.
I have been to mosques it was ok,actually I couldn't wait to get out of there....Maybe it's a language barrier
I haven't spoken to anyone about this as it is such a big thing -changed my name on mn but sometimes I just don't want to be a Muslim. I want to bring up my children with faith and I struggle to explain the Muslim faith.

I'm sure there is the odd sentence in the above which makes sense :)

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 21:59

Grumpy - I'm not putting anyone down. They are saying Islam empowers and liberates women and I'm asking how, considering they can't have male friends, can't put on a swimsuit and swim with their DC, and know their religion allows their husbands to (lightly) hit them.

I'm surprised you can't handle being asked questions like this. Surely you knew they were coming when you claim Islam empowers and liberates women.

stmoritzsmells · 15/06/2012 22:00

For me the answer to your question is pretty simple. You may call it whatever you want and have whatever opinion you want on it, fine by moi.

The man, is appointed by Allah as the head of the family. Therefore he has the final say in matters, he is the captain of the ship and he has the right over his family to discipline them. I don't see the issue as all in being given a light tap on the shoulder to a woman (which is forbidden to cause a mark, any pain or discomfort or bruise) to correct her. The prophet's wives were very verbal in anything they disagreed with in regards to him and his affairs, so for me, that evens it out.

Don't forget, this light tap is after a guy has left his wife's bed and has let her know he's unhappy many times before.

Walahy, by Allah, Ive got to go now and watch a film with dh so will continue this another time inshaallah

post anymore questions and the others will answer them way more eloquently than me I guarantee lol. have good evenings people x

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 22:01

nailak - Those women are Adnan Hodja drones, all dolled up, siliconed, and in all likelihood their brains completely washed out of their skulls to accommodate his twisted views. I feel truly sorry for them.

nailak · 15/06/2012 22:01

The Deficiency in Intelligence and Religion

Another objection in the Hadith is regarding women being deficient in intelligence and religion. The concerned part of the Hadith is reproduced below:

?(Rasulullah ﷺ said), ?I have not seen anyone more deficient in intellect or deen. Yet the mind of even a resolute man might be swept away by one of you.' They said, 'In what way is our deen and intellect deficient, Messenger of Allah?' He said, 'Is not the testimony of a woman worth only half that of a man?' They said, 'Yes.' He said, 'That is how your intellect is deficient. Is it not so that when a woman is menstruating, she neither prays nor fasts?' They said, 'Yes.' He said, 'That is how her deen is deficient.'? ? (Bukhari; Book of Menstruation, Chapter of Menstruating Women Abstaining from Fast)

The statement in the Hadith regarding the deficiencies are general and do not incorporate everyone. It is nothing but a fact that a menstruating woman cannot offer Salah. So if a man and woman live for the same amount of time in the world, the total number of Salah offered by the man will be more because every month there will be a few days during which the woman will not be able to pray. But this is a general rule because there are many men who neither offer Salah nor fast. So obviously compared to them the Salah of a woman who is consistent will be more. Being deficient is not necessarily something bad and only that deficiency is bad for which one receives a sin e.g. if one leaves Salah on purpose. Further, even in this ?deficiency? there may be reward for her.

Allamah Badruddin Abu Muhammad Mahmood bin Ahmad al-?Ayni in ?Umdatul Qari Sharh Sahih Bukhari (Darul Kutub al-'Ilmiyyah, Beirut, Lebanon; 2001, vol. pg 403

?Imam Nawawi رحمة اللہ علیه said, Lack of one's deen may be in a way where one commits a sin, such as the one who leaves Salah without any excuse, or it may be in a way for which one does not sin, such as the one who leaves Friday Prayer for a valid excuse, or it may also be in a way one is required to leave such as the menstruating woman leaving Salah and Fast. If one asks, ?If she has an excuse for leaving Salah during menstruation, does she get rewarded even if she does not do Qadha just like the sick person who gets the reward for the Nawafil he used to pray while being healthy?? And the apparent answer is that she does not get rewarded, and the difference between her and a sick person is that the sick person used to pray with the intention of praying with consistency and the knowledge that he will be able to do so, while the woman has the intention of not praying while having the period. And how can she pray when praying (during menstruation) is Haram on her? I say, ?One should get rewarded for leaving the Haram.??

As far as the witness issue and thus deficiency in intelligence is concerned, the ruling of two women witnesses is also found in the Qur?an in Surah Baqarah. It should be made clear that not in all matters is the witness of two women required. Such an issue on which there is Ijma? where two women are required is the issue of financial transactions. This has been explained by Ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni (Darul Fikr, Beirut, Lebanon; 1985, vol.10 pg 155-161) where he has also stated:

?Qadhi said: And that in which the witness of only women of accepted is Birth, Crying of the Child at birth, Rida', 'Uyub under the clothes such as Ratq and Qarn, whether she is a virgin or not, Baras and the end of Iddah.?

Thus it is seen that there are many such cases where man has no knowledge and the witness of a woman is accepted. As far as the issue of financial dealing is concerned, some have explained that it has to do with the weakness of the memory of woman in mathematical issues. Some neuro-psychiatrists have also expressed this but it should be know that one should not be in favor of trying to justify or express the wisdom of the laws of Shari?ah with the help of science. This is because science is not absolute but the Wisdom of Allah is Absolute. It should however be noted that this deficiency that the Hadith talks about is general and not all encompassing.

Mufti ?Aashiq Ilahi رحمة اللہ علیه writes in Anwarul Bayan (Darul Ishaat, Karachi, Pakistan; 2005, vol.1 pg 341):

?This applies to general circumstances since there are many exceptions where women may possess stronger memories, are more intelligent or better able to express themselves than men.?

Moreover, the Qur?an says in Surah Nur (24) verse 6-9:
Those who accuse their wives (of adultery) while they have no witnesses except their own selves, then the evidence of one of them would be to swear four oaths by Allah that he is truthful,
and the fifth (oath) that Allah?s curse be on him if he is one of the liars.
And it will remove the punishment from the woman if she swears four oaths by Allah that he (the accuser husband) is certainly one of the liars,
and the fifth (oath) that Allah?s wrath be on her if he is one of the truthful.

In this example it is seen that a woman?s witness by Li?aan is enough to be accepted over the husband?s oath. Mufti Shafi? Usmani رحمة اللہ علیه in Ma?ariful Qur?an (Maktaba e Darul ?Uloom, Karachi, Pakistan; 2007, vol.6 pg 363) writes:

The suggestion that the woman is half a person, because of the requirement for two women as witness in some issues, is very incorrect. Firstly if woman was something inferior or degraded in Islam then there would not have been an issue where only a woman?s witness would suffice and as seen in the case above, given preference over the man?s witness. And if a woman is said to be half because of certain cases of witness, then where man?s witness is not counted, Islam did not even give that status of half a person to man . Additionally it can also be argued that normally two men are required to complete the requirement of witness in an issue but in the case of adultery the requirement is of four men. Then one should also say that man is half a person as well. Hence such arguments are baseless and do not have any ground to stand upon.

KalSkirata · 15/06/2012 22:01

Cote, I cant see any of that in the Quran. I can however see it in centuries of male interpretation.
Same with all religions. Even wiccan women's circles are finding male interpretations of Goddess worship

nailak · 15/06/2012 22:02

cote his twisted views that it is ok to fraternise with non covered non mahrams?

what is he on?

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 22:04

"The man, is appointed by Allah as the head of the family. Therefore he has the final say in matters, he is the captain of the ship and he has the right over his family to discipline them."

Can everyone here at least agree that this part doesn't look like Muslim women are more empowered and liberated than others in the UK? The ones whose husbands are not appointed chief by God, with the right to discipline them?

KalSkirata · 15/06/2012 22:05

couldnt disagree more stmoritz. Men shouldnt hit women. The Prophet never did. Yet we have men using a mistranlation to justify hitting their wives. As for 'Captain of the ship'. A marriage is a partnership, not ship.

nailak · 15/06/2012 22:07

lostagain where in the Quran (that you havent read Hmm) does it say women cant work after marriage?

why would the ruling be different for after marriage then before?

of course women can work. The female companions of the prophet worked. His first wife was a rich business woman.

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 22:07

nailak - Of course that is be enough but not just that. Read a bit on what he has previously done. He effectively ran a prostitution ring within his cult, giving girls to powerful men and celebrities, then filming and blackmailing them. Allowing anal sex to conserve girls' virginity, all ok as long as there was a witness in the room Shock Seriously, he is such a scary and awful character that you will not believe half of what you read about him because it will sound too fantastical to be true.

nailak · 15/06/2012 22:09

seriously if your husband taps you on the shoulder with a toothbrush it is just weird.

tbh i think refusing to share my bed would have a greater effect on me.

KalSkirata · 15/06/2012 22:09

who is this guy Cote? Got an easy link.

Lostagain · 15/06/2012 22:09

Nailek I said husbands say that to their wives, meaning they twist what's in the Quran

OP posts:
nailak · 15/06/2012 22:10

and people follow his rulings? anal sex is halal now? Shock

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 22:11

Why would a husband tap his wife on her shoulder with a toothbrush if he wants to correct her for misbehavior? Confused Is that how captains of ships discipline people in their power?

nailak · 15/06/2012 22:13

oh sorry lost yeah you are right.

Some husbands think that being the "captain of the ship" means that they can be dictators and their wives have to follow their whims like robots and dont have the right to have aspirations or feelings of their own. yes it is true.

We know that the prophet Muhammad pbuh consulted his wives and took their advise, listened to what they wanted, and there is a hadith that says "the best of men are those who are kind to their wives"

cote please dont start on fiqhulhadith

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 22:14

He doesn't say anything like that now but these are things he did (or allowed) when he had all these rich kids in his cult in Istanbul. He "married" them for short periods, then passed those girls on for all sorts of things Sad

Look up Adnan Oktar or Harun Yahya. Truly vile character and a good lesson re not to just believe everything you find on the Internet (like OP of that other thread did)

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 22:15

I won't start, nailak, don't worry. I'm off to bed Smile

KalSkirata · 15/06/2012 22:15

ta

nailak · 15/06/2012 22:17

sorry, i have to post translation as said upthread when i asked for constructive criticism on my dawah techniques Grin fiquhlhadith = rulings/laws from hadith. Hadith are narrations about what the Prophet Muhammad sas said and did. There is a whole science about how they were collected and different classifications. If one person in a chain of narration wasnt known to be in a certain place at the time to hear the narration, or was known to be untrustworthy etc the hadith will be weaker classification for example.

cote I think it is more a demonstration of his unhappiness, like throwing something or punching a wall etc?

Mustgettogym · 15/06/2012 22:17

I'm a Muslim and I wear a bikini (well not right now but last summer I did before DS!!)

My DH loved me in a bikini. I don't put the pics up on fb or anything because he doesn't want people to ogle/I don't want to look like a show off because my body is was dammit kick ass.

Everyone I know who is Muslim wears a bikini/swimming costume. If your DH doesn't mind it is fine!!? You are supposed to dress modestly but in today's times it is a woman's choice.

lostagain you sound like you live in Manchester/Luton/Bradford/Stratford type of place? I assume your community (your childhood/family community) came from the village in the 1950s and still have that mindset? Who gets their children married to an illiterate who can't find a job in the UK?!?! It's sad because these types of communities Dont really have good role models - I assume that's why you turned away from your community?

Islam is not small minded and controlling - these communities are.

And Cote - you are very anti Islam!! That's a fact.

I would never accept light tapping. When the quaraan was written it was a cultural norm to 'lightly tap' your wife. Even in the western world it has only been a few decades since this was a criminal offence/social suicide. No muslim woman or man would acce

KalSkirata · 15/06/2012 22:18

'Oktar claims that the theory of evolution is a Masonic conspiracy initiated by the Rosicrucians.'

He is David Icke!

Mustgettogym · 15/06/2012 22:20

*accePt this!!

And it is liberating - I have my own salary and I also get 'spending money from DH! When he takes cash out for himself he gives me £20 or £50 on an ad hoc basis. Doesn't ask what I sPend it on but always guffaws at the crap I buy on his credit card.

We are in the middle of getting an apartment and are using some

Lostagain · 15/06/2012 22:20

Mustget

Actually mum and dad were born in the uk, I do not come from the places u mentioned, please don't stereotype me.

X

OP posts:
Mustgettogym · 15/06/2012 22:22

*accePt this!!

And it is liberating - I have my own salary and I also get 'spending money from DH! When he takes cash out for himself he gives me £20 or £50 on an ad hoc basis. Doesn't ask what I sPend it on but always guffaws at the crap I buy on his credit card.

We are in the middle of getting an apartment and are using some Of his money and some of mine. It is a partnership. It's also nice to know he will always take care if me (because he loves me)