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To not want to be a Muslim

499 replies

Lostagain · 10/06/2012 22:40

Ok so I am a Muslim, have 2 dd and married dh is a convert to Islam....
Anyway from a young age I have had a strong pull towards Christianity or aspects of it. I don't believe Jesus is the son of god, but do believe he will return again etc.
Is it a cultural thing? I was born and brought up in the uk, went to a cofe school for a few years then we went to a inner city which was full of Asians- I am Asian but it was horrible, I hated it. Despite this I still sang on the school choir, certain people were horrified at the time, but my mum supported me. In my teens i went a bit religion mad and started wearing a headscarf etc- didn't last long,
i love Christmas and Easter, I sing hymms when I'm washing upHmm i've been to a few church's in my time, funerals weddings etc and to be honest it's so peaceful there.
I have been to mosques it was ok,actually I couldn't wait to get out of there....Maybe it's a language barrier
I haven't spoken to anyone about this as it is such a big thing -changed my name on mn but sometimes I just don't want to be a Muslim. I want to bring up my children with faith and I struggle to explain the Muslim faith.

I'm sure there is the odd sentence in the above which makes sense :)

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 21:11

nailak - I answered your question re Harun Yahya's TV show a bit further downthread. It cost me time and mental anguish so I hope you find it interesting Smile

ReallyTired · 15/06/2012 21:12

"I feel liberated that a muslim husband is legally responsible for providing for his wife and family ans therefore I do not have to work a day in my life if I choose not to."

However that is hardly equality. I prefer to have a partnership with my husband. We work together as a team. There is interdependence between us.

At the moment I am not working, but I have been the bread winner when he lost his job. If my husband could not work for some reason then I would support him financially.

Juule · 15/06/2012 21:15

stmoritz the things you say you feel liberated about because of Islam could also apply to someone who isn't Muslim.

stmoritzsmells · 15/06/2012 21:19

If you had done your research prroperly Cote, you would know that the arabic definition for 'light tap' comes out in the english language as 'hit' or 'slap'. This is a well known and publicised issue in Islam with regards to women and scholars have explained it. Also, this is the last resort a guy has to correct the behaviour or attitude of his wife after he has left her bed etc. Read the Qur'an fully in that passage because it does not at any point randomnly in there say ' a man can smack a woman.'

A woman's testimony only half of a mans, well yes let me answer that best as I can. This passage is in a particular context.

        O you who believe! When you deal with each other in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear his Lord, Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If the party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully. And get two witnesses out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as you choose for witnesses so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

        The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is more just in the sight of Allah, more suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, but if it be a transaction with you carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is not blame on you if you reduce it not to writing, But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah; for it is Allah that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. (Qur?an 2:282)

Interestingly, a woman in a another passage is equal in her testimony to a man. Read further
And for those who launch a charge against their spouses and have (in support) no evidence but their own, their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife if she bears witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that (her husband) is telling a like; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth. (Qur?an 24:6-9)

stmoritzsmells · 15/06/2012 21:21

Juule I do agree with you.

I'm simply stating how I feel liberated as opposed to how I used to live my life and how I see others around me living, even on far fetched shows like towie etc. But in terms of things that are legally viable in Islam such as being provided for and not having to work, being able to study and being able to work if I wish to, the fact that my salary is all mine and legally a muslim husband has no right over his wife's money. They're just a few things that I feel very liberated by.

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 21:22

"I feel liberated that a muslim husband is legally responsible for providing for his wife and family ans therefore I do not have to work a day in my life if I choose not to"

What will happen to this feeling of liberation if you have to divorce one day, then?

I'm a SAHM atm, too, but I don't think DH earning the money has anything to do with my feeling free. That is more about doing what I want, like putting on my bikini and spending an afternoon swimming with DC like I did today.

Can you do that?

stmoritzsmells · 15/06/2012 21:22

Reallytired - thats your opinion and the way you live your life. It's not my opinion or the way I live my life. You see it as a team, I think that's great for you guys, but for me I like the choice and prefer while my kids are young to be able to relax and not worry about it.

Lostagain · 15/06/2012 21:23

Why can't it be simple?

OP posts:
stmoritzsmells · 15/06/2012 21:25

Just because I don't choose to wear a bikini doesn't mean I can't go swimming lol.I may go swimming when I please and in what I wish to wear as we are fortunate to have a muslim ladies and childrens pool close by.

So yes Cote...I can do that!

YellowSubmarina · 15/06/2012 21:28

"I'm a SAHM atm, too, but I don't think DH earning the money has anything to do with my feeling free. That is more about doing what I want, like putting on my bikini and spending an afternoon swimming with DC like I did today.

Can you do that?"

Sniping much CoteDAzur?

Hmm
Lostagain · 15/06/2012 21:29

Stmor i think it's great that you can be a sahm, as your dh provides, this isn't always the case in Islam/culture.

Women cannot go to work after they are married, it says so it the quran- well hats what the husbands say to their wives after getting married. I have seen this to be quite destructive. You marry someone from back home, no choice as such, they come to this country and cannot work for whatever reason, who supports the family? The woman is well educated, can speak English etc but cannot work. Do other members of the family support them? Friends ? The government?

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 21:32

StMoritz - No need to get angry, we are just talking Smile

I don't need to research and I don't need to read all your quotes because, as you said, this is a widely analyzed and publicized part of the Quran and there is no doubt that it gives permission to the man to slap his woman. Or smack. Or "lightly tap", or whatever euphemism you want to call it to make it more bearable.

"this is the last resort a guy has to correct the behaviour or attitude of his wife after he has left her bed etc."

So it's OK? Shock

If DH dared even think of "correcting" my behaviour or attitude, I would think it is time for him to find himself another wife. And if he ever "lightly taps" me for whatever reason but especially to "correct" my behavior or attitude, I would kick him out and press charges so quickly that he wouldn't have time to find God before gets cuffed and taken away.

That is what a strong and free woman does, and imho, you have a bit more empowerment and liberation to get there if you think it's ok for your husband to slap you around (lightly Hmm) to make you behave.

stmoritzsmells · 15/06/2012 21:33

Lostagain - I can assure you it does not say anywhere in the Qur'an that a woman cannot go out to work.

You are right though and there's no doubt, some husband marry their wives and become totally different people, abusing their rights and taking away their wives rights altogether. I have never seen or heard of a situation in my personal community such as this, but am well aware of these men who claim to be muslims, that do this. It's abhorrent and unfortunately happens in every religion, and in every community. There will always be men, regardless of religion or background who emotionally/physically abuse and oppress their wives.

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 21:36

Yellow - It's a fair question, I would think. Why would you say I'm "sniping"?

Imho being a SAHM doesn't determine your freedom. Being able to do whatever you like without hurting others is what makes you free.

I can have male friends, go out without DH, put on a bikini and swim in the sea with my DC. Can she or other Muslims here do any of that? If not, what does that mean for their feelings of empowerment and liberation?

I'm not being rude or sniping. These are completely valid and relevant questions.

stmoritzsmells · 15/06/2012 21:38

sorry Cote, where did I get angry? Please clarify? :)

And it is not widely analayzed, this is a fact in the arabic language. You only have to be fluent in the classical fusha arabic to know this simple fact regarding the 'hit' definition. I really don't appreciate your lack of information and that fact that you clearly enjoy misleading people who are reading what you say about things such as this in Islam.

People on here with sense, and there are many, will do their own research, not just believe things that people tell them out of their own dislike for a religion.

YellowSubmarina · 15/06/2012 21:42

Cote don't act like u are posting stuff on here without a hidden agenda

ur well known and its already been said by others about ur sniping comments towards muslims. Ive seen them and 2 be fair I take my hat off to people like kalskirata and nailak who can remain polite 2u Hmm

dont even try the 'im posting valid and relevant questions' crap. the fakeness truly stinks.

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 21:45

Please refrain from personal attacks or I will have to report you.

"hidden agenda"? Like advancement of Christianity? Grin

Anyway, I will go back to the topic of conversation and ignore your sniping, if you don't mind.

GrumpyPlopsOnThaWine · 15/06/2012 21:48

It is sniping if youre trying to put down a person online cos they cant wear a bikini. I dont think anyone in this thread missed that comment or its underlying tone. Or have I missed the point?

Lostagain · 15/06/2012 21:48

Cote- I think most of your questioning is great! We would ask things like what happens if u divorce to our Islamic studies teacher- she wasn't impressed and accused us of causing trouble. It's human nature to question, good for you.
Biscuit

OP posts:
nailak · 15/06/2012 21:52

cote, i read it and i was suprised to find out it was about current affairs, i thought it was some cable game show or something!!!

and i think we are all agreed that those women didnt look liberated?

YellowSubmarina · 15/06/2012 21:52

Questionings fine and important lostagain - your islamic teacher cant have been very educated if she cant even explain divorce and issue of khula etc...this is what makes islam look bad to people.
Cote - report me if u want, Im just stating the truth about u to be fair.

CoteDAzur · 15/06/2012 21:53

St Moritz - Apologies if I got the wrong impression. It felt from "if you had done your research properly" that temperatures were rising Smile

Anyway, I dont argue against your explanation of the original Arabic as "light tap" which you said is authorized to correct a woman's behavior or attitude.

That is still outrageous - Quran gives Muslim men the right to use physical punishment on Muslim women. Who cares if the tap in question is "light"? And how light can it be if it is meant to "correct" you. Surely not as light as a caresse.

So, the question remains: How can you say Muslim women are more empowered and liberated than non-Muslim women of the UK who would never accept "light tapping" from their husbands, because the law says even that is a crime?

KalSkirata · 15/06/2012 21:53

I cant wear a bikini. Cos I'm a fat blob.

nailak · 15/06/2012 21:56

Belittling Women with the Hadeeth: ?Women are Deficient in Intellect and Deen?

Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz
Reference: Majmoo? Fatawaa Wa Maqalaat Mutanawi?ah. Vol. 3/292
Translator: Shadeed Muhammad, Abu Az-Zubayr

We often hear the noble Hadeeth "Women are deficient in their intelligence and in their Deen? and some men use this Hadeeth as a form of
belittlement towards the women. We desire from you O noble shaykh, clarification of the meaning of this Hadeeth?

The meaning of the Hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu ?alayhe wa sallam):
?I have never seen anyone with a deficiency of ?Aql (intellect) and Deen (religion) who are more overpowering to men than one of you [women].?

So it was said:
?O Messenger of Allaah, what is the deficiency in her intelligence??
He said:
?Isn?t the witness of two women equal to that of one man??
So it was said:
?What is the deficiency in her Deen??
So he said:
?Isn?t it the case that if she is menstruating she doesn?t pray or fast??

So the Messenger (sal-Allaahu ?alayhe wa sallam) clarified that the deficiency of her intellect was from the angle of her weak memory and that her testimony is strengthened with the testimony of another woman. This is because of the preciseness of the witness (in Islaam) and because she could
forget and make an addition or deletion to the testimony

. Just as Allaah says:
{And bring forth two witnesses from your own men. If there are not two men (available) then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs then the other can remind her?} [2282]

As for deficiency in her Deen, then it is because during her state of menstruation and post-partum bleeding, she abandons the Salaat and fasting, and she doesn?t make up the salaat. This is from the deficiency in her Deen. But this deficiency is not blameworthy upon her. Rather it is a deficiency,
which happens as a result of that which Allaah had decreed for her and this was done in a manner of leniency and easiness towards her. For if she
were to fast in a state of menstruation or in a state of postpartum bleeding it would harm her. So from the Mercy of Allaah (towards women) He has
legislated for her to abandon the fast at the time when she is menstruating or in a state of Nifaas, and to make up the fast afterwards.

As for the salaat, then without a doubt, the state of menstruation prevents her from purification. So from the mercy of Allaah, He legislated for her to
abandon her prayer and likewise in the state of Nifaas. He also legislated for her not to make it up, because in making up the (Salaat) is difficulty,
because the Salaat is tremendous, and repetitious, five times throughout the night and day, and the days of menstruation can be plentiful, sometimes
seven or eight days or more than that. And the Nifaas could reach 40 days. So from the mercy of Allaah upon her and from His Ihsaan (doing good)
towards her is that He removed the Salaat from her whether it be the initial Salaat or the make-up.

And this does not necessitate that her intelligence
is deficient in everything! Nor that her Deen is deficient in everything!

But indeed the Messenger (saw) clarified that the deficiency in her intelligence
is from that which happens to her from the lack of precision in her memory and testimony, and that the deficiency in her Deen is from the fact that she
leaves off the prayer and fasting at the time of her menses or in the state of Nifaas

. Also this doesn?t necessitate that she is less than a man in
everything! or the fact that the man is better in everything! Yes, generally the male gender is better than the gender of the females generally for
many reasons.

Just as Allaah the High and Sublime says:
{Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend their wealth (to support them)?} [434]
But she can surpass him, sometimes, in many things. And by Allaah how many women surpass many men in their intelligence, Deen and precisio!

There could be some affairs that she places great importance on and is precise in them more so than the precision of a man. There are many issues,
which she carefully considers, and is diligent in memorizing and precise in. She would become the foundation in Islaamic history and point of
reference in many affairs and this is clear to those who ponder and reflect on the state of the women during the time of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu
?alayhe wa sallam) and after that. *With this it should be understood that this deficiency should not prevent her from being treated equally in her
narrations and in her testimony

KalSkirata · 15/06/2012 21:58

as for 'light tap', Here's an interesting article saying (and ive seenmore and more academics agree) that the word has been mistranslated and does not mean hit in any way. But to leave or 'go forth from'.
here