Can you "choose" to believe in God, if you just genuinely don't?

[aquestionwithnoanswer]

Namechanger as this is just a bit too personal.

Basically as the title says. I can't help it, I believe facts. I believe science and proof and things that I can "know."

I was raised in Christianity, can quote the Bible chapter and verse, educated about many religions, surrounded by people who have faith, but I cannot bring myself to believe in God - any God.

The thing is, I want to. For various reasons, I really want to believe in God.

Do you choose it? How can I "make" myself believe it? I certainly don't feel it. If I am honest, it all makes very little sense, it is illogical, it is not rational. My mum answers that with "that's why it's called faith!" but that is not really helpful.

How do you get there from here?

Jesus certainly hated the actions of many of the religious leaders of the time - called them a brood of vipers, for one.

I suppose the whole 'I hate religion but love God' thing comes from wanting to detach from the more odious crimes associated with religion as well as the seemingly meaningless rituals. I am not sure you can separate religion from God, since the definition of religion is simply to believe in and worship a higher power. The problem comes in the trapping of religion and what religious people have permitted down the ages, not in the word religion itself. In some senses I think we need to separate the words 'religion' and 'the religious', and even 'religious rites and passages.'

I'm rambling. What I am trying to say is that I am religious in the etymology of the word, that is I love and worship God. But I hate some of the things the name of religion has brought and allowed.

Where does it say Jesus hated religion?
Well, he certainly didn't seem to like people who made an outward show of religion - the 'whited sepulchres'. He told people to pray in private not public. However, it depends what you mean by 'religion' - he can't have been against all gatherings with a ritual element as he instituted the Last Supper. One somehow doubts he quite meant it to evolve into the various Communion and Mass rites with fancy cups and disagreements about transsubstantiation.

Indeed, Grimma. Sometimes I wonder what he makes of it all

I think you are right in saying that it depends what you mean by religion. When critcising the Pharisees, I thought it was hypocrisy Jesus was condemning and not the religion itself.

I like Jjkm's comment that "God will judge all by their hearts." I wonder if I can interpret that to mean that non-Christians, who lead good and noble lives, could be permitted into "paradise"/"heaven"/etc., and see their loved ones again even though they didn't follow Christian doctrine in life? Like a wonderful surprise in discovering that they were wrong in their disbelief? Or am I stretching the concept too far?

Crunchy raises a really excellent point about unconditional love, but with conditions? I get a bit lost there.

Springy, it is a wonderful idea to me that all you have to do is accept that God is, and you are then accepted, without having to do all the things (good idea MadHairDay on seperate terms for religion/religious ritest and passages, etc.). But I know not everyone believes that either. Everyone I talk to irl seems so certain that their way is "correct" - I like the idea that all of the practises aren't the point.

The "God is Love" pov sounds beautiful and yet is beyond my grasp, unfortunately, as right now I am finding it very hard to imagine God as Love when considering all the pain and suffering that happens to good/innocent people. But I'm sure that bias is likely due to my headspace and circumstances right now. I have wondered lately, if I can bring myself to believe in God, will I just be horribly angry with him? How do Christians reconcile that? Even if personal experience is put aside, surely the horrendous things that take place across the globe call into question God being Love?

DutchOma, have just realized that you are right; there is not one word in the bible that directly says anything about being with our loved ones again, unless what Springy mentioned about Jesus' comments to the other man on a cross could be interpreted as that promise.

I think you articulated it well CheerfulYank. He does know where I am at, and recognizes that my simply being open to the possibility of "more" is a mammoth step in his direction. I'd like to be able to offer him something more than that, but I need to actually come to believe it if I'm going to tell him that I do. I am not going to lie, iykwim.

Epic post, sorry so long!

X-post jjkm, that's interesting. I do quite a bit of volunteer work and charitable donations, but it's not really giving something up in the sense that you've mentioned, as I am very rewarded by it. Perhaps more of a self sacrifice would help.

there is not one word in the bible that directly says anything about being with our loved ones again

Apparently the idea of an afterlife was imported into Judaism from Zoroastrianism during the exile in Babylon, and at the time of Christ some sects believed it and others didn't - it wasn't so much of a 'given' in the religion of the time as we might now think. (Just an academic sort of aside to the discussion.)

AQ, whether there's an afterlife or not, one thing is for sure - your love will last for as long as you live. And this process you're going through - your unflinching honesty - means at very least you shouldn't have regrets at anything left unsaid or half-truths to tarnish that. I simply don't see how a god, of the type the many other lovely posters do believe in, could possibly exclude you from his grace.

God's grace is freely offered to all, Grimma. It is up to each and every individual whether to accept it or not. God does not strong-arm us into believing, He is no bully.

re being angry with God OP. Something very bad happened to me and I was so consumed with rage that I couldn't speak to God without a stream of expletives pouring out. I didn't know what to do about that, and I held it off for a long time (years), which was a shame. It wasn't until I was honest with him about how I felt, expletives and all, that we could work through it iyswim (it took some time). If I hadn't really had it out with him I'd probably still be boiling with rage to this day - which would have been disastrous for me .

'Come, let us reason together' he says. That's lovely imo.

Grimma that's interesting, I was starting to wonder where it had originated from, as it does seem quite pervasive with those Christians I've talked to irl. And thank you, for your kind words, and for understanding why I can't just say what he wants to hear, as much as I'd like to have that to offer.

DutchOma if God's grace is freely offered, I'd like to know if you think someone can accept it, without accepting all that Christianity (or maybe better said as some of the religious practises of some of the church denominations) entails?

I'm sorry that you suffered through something that caused you to feel that way Springy. I would like to ask, what happened when you did that; when you allowed yourself to express what you felt, released your anger, how did you then become, well, not angry anymore? Does something happen in response? I'm interested in how you "reason together." That implies a conversation of sorts. Specifically, how do you "hear" God's response to your anguish?

Jjkm, what does it mean when you say that you believe "religion matters, when it is led of God?" Do you mean a minister/priest/appropriate church leader teaching about God?

AQ yes, of course. I nearly put that in capitals. Religious practices grew out of the first encounters that the disciples had with Jesus, some people find them helpful (eg I worship through music, but not all music) different people find different things helpful or no things.

But at the heart of Christianity is a "please" and "thank you". "Please" as to "I need Jesus" and "thank you" for "dying for me and making a relationship possible". All the rest comes later and is, essentially not important.

Most of my prayers involve me saying "I swear I'm trying " a lot. :)

I love God with everything I am, and believe in and try to follow Jesus, but honestly I know almost nothing. In my humblest of humble opinions, the people who really seem to be certain about a lot of things God-related are, well, quite scary. Like Fred Phelps.

I feel like most of the time I'm standing on a stepping stone in a river with fog all around, and no idea what to do next. Eventually I see the next stone. It takes awhile, usually, and sometimes it turns out not to be a stone at all. Or what have you. I just try to be as open and kind as possible, and listen for what I feel to be the guidance of God.

Again, I'm sorry you and your friend are going through this. Would he like it if I thought of/prayed for him?

CheerfulYank "the people who really seem to be certain about a lot of things God-related are, well, quite scary" I agree.

"I just try to be as open and kind as possible, and listen for what I feel to be the guidance of God" but is the guidance God or your subconscious working things out? I've had solutions to problems come while I'm asleep - God or subconscious? How do you know?

I guess because sometimes they are things I would rather not do. :o

But even though you would rather not do something you would still know that you probably should do that something. Or am I misunderstanding?

I so often feel I stand in that 'river' CY and haven't got a clue. And so often I just know what I should do next How? God only knows. It has to be enough that I know that God knows and that I can trust Him.

well, I suppose, he is there . sometimes I think it's getting in on his frequency, what with the cacophany that rages, the endless distractions. It's important for me to get down and dirty with God, to get quiet: Be still and know that I am God. He is gorgeously lovely, I have to say.

So I do chew things over with him, big and small; lay it all out. Although I talk to him throughout the day, constantly almost, I have to push everything aside sometimes and get quiet, no distractions. What happens in that time is private and intimate - and nothing is barred. I talk to him about everything and know I am not condemned on any level, he takes seriously anything I have to say. Is there a dialogue, does he answer? yes he does, though I have not before tried to dissect how he does that...

erm a myriad different ways. The main anchor to any form of discussion is the bible, so I read that pretty much as a staple. A lot of it I don't particularly understand but, no matter - there are some good stories in there! (don't mean to be facetious) and bits I adore. I think by reading it, getting to know it, you get to know what he's like, how he works, the way/s he goes about things. Although he's awesome, ime he is almost always pretty ordinary if that makes sense. imo he wants to be known, has said so, over and over (in the bible). for some inexplicable reason, he wants and offers relationship with us and I'm not going to argue with that. Other ways are simply through daily life - discussions, sermons, books, prayer (alone and with others), church; telly, radio, songs, conversations... I check it out though, sift it re 'is that you?' - if it looks like it is I'll ask for it to be confirmed; if it is not confirmed (pops up again somewhere else - a number of times; confirmed a number of times during times with him) I drop it. I'm well aware of the power of (auto) suggestion and my experiences have given me a healthy 'respect' for the wacky, the offbeam. He says we will know his voice and you do get to recognise it, over time.

re the time I was incandescently angry (actually, hurt): by holding on to that, being 'religious' about it, it created a block between us. It stacked up and got into a mess before I got on with it and let it out - or, let him have it, to be more precise. One does quake at the idea but there's nothing for it but to expose what's really there, to be real. No point pretending and being 'good' about it: I felt incredibly angry and let down, very specifically by him. We had to get over that. His response was deeply loving and healing. He will love you if you let him.

Specifically? When I first let it out, I was so infused with rage that in the first instance that's all I could hear for quite a while. Then came the pause, if you like, with all my ire spent; a fear? (This is God here, what are you doing??) He took it seriously - I had a very serious and legitimate complaint. In the first instance, and to my surprise, he specifically revealed something to me, a section in the bible. I was not reading the bible at that stage, specifically not reading it. I read it in a book someone had sent me which I literally skimmed through, full of disgust. I knew this section of the bible like the back of my hand, yet somehow I 'saw' it clearly for the first time. Through it I could see that God was not the author of what had happened, that he was not, in some sick way, 'teaching me something', 'punishing me' - I had wanted nothing to do with what looked like a sick and capricious God who flayed people alive, thanks. So, that took me by surprise. I 'got' how serious things are here: I had experienced it, it wasn't theory any more. I had thought I should be inured from it, protected, but I wasn't, as so many aren't. I always say that if you are going through something awful, one of the best things is to meet with others who are going through, or been through, the same; that one of the most jarring things is to have someone around who knows the theory but has never experienced it: it's empathy you want, not sympathy. Well, I experienced some sick and seemingly pointless suffering. As has God tbh. It's not theory with him either.

From there I was open to his healing and goodness, kindness. There's a lot of that ime. [how does that happen? in your soul I suppose. If you're looking, you'll find.] The sick and vicious, pointless suffering that is all around propels my prayers somewhat: Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Giant post, sorry.

Great post springy

I always think it's healthy to shout at God. The book of Psalms contains many examples of such. I've done it time and again, and in the act of doing so found some of the burden lifted. I think God can take it :)

Second what Madhairday has said - that was a great post Springy, thank you for sharing it.

CY your "river" description is nothing short of eloquent, btw. I think he would like it if you prayed for him, though I'm not sure he'd be totally impressed with me having this personal discussion on a public forum!

I suppose it is a bit odd of me actually. But the responses on this thread have been so very thought provoking, that although I've been feeling quite vulnerable about being so open, it has definitely been worth it. It's been much better discussion than I've been able to find irl, and I've spoken with the full spectrum now, from various clergy to devout athiests. I truly appreciate how freely everyone has answered my rather blunt questions.

I'm not sure I agree with the 'giving something up' idea tbh as if I haven't said enough already To me, that sounds like a religious practise ie doing sometihng to appease God, to get what you want. imo God doesnt work like that, there's nothing you can do to 'earn' anything from him.

I sometimes fast (go without food, or someting else) but it's not to get God to listen, it's more to get clarity in myself so that I can see God more clearly.