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Original poster

Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

700 replies

ImproperlyAcquainted · 11/03/2012 16:36

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

OP posts:
PostBellumBugsy · 14/03/2012 10:39

Oh Improperly can you explain that a bit more? I'd love to better understand how the rules of the Church are made. Having grown up with a very old fashioned Irish Catholic mother - no questions were permitted, we just had to accept that the Church was ALWAYS right.

Northey · 14/03/2012 10:41

Because, wamster, the Pope does not always talk as God's representative on earth. In fact, for the vast vast majority of the time he is just talking as himself. You can see how ridiculous it would be if every random utterance he made, such as "oh absolutely Earl Grey is the best tea," were treated as the divine view of God transmitted to earth.

Also, when he actually IS talking as God's representative, there are limits to what he can and can't say.

Northey · 14/03/2012 10:43

Oh Improperly, you put that so much more intelligently and knowledgably than my vague bibblings.

How was the redefining of Petrine ministry going to take place? How far did it get?

Wamster · 14/03/2012 10:45

Northey your cognitive dissonance is really quite remarkable. I think it is pretty safe to say that the Pope's comments on gay marriage are spoken as god's representative on earth and as the word of God.

Not about a cup of bloody tea. Hmm

Mum2Luke · 14/03/2012 10:45

Am gonna get shot down for this I know but I do not think gays should be married in Church which is God's house. I have no problem with gays getting married (or just living together) but in a civil ceremony, its still legal is it not?

God created man and woman to be together to create other humans and I am sorry if people do not agree but that is what I believe and am going to stand up for my beliefs. Gays have civil ceremonies, why do they want to have a church wedding? Is it the whole getting dressed up in a dress and suit thing which doesn't make a marriage I may add, that is only the start. You have to work at a marriage.

I am sorry if I offended any gays but I am sorry that is what I believe and will not change to suit anyone else.

PostBellumBugsy · 14/03/2012 10:46

I'm such an ignoramous. Who in the Church decides such things as contraceptives are not allowed & therefore it is a sin to use them? Who works out what is a sin? Where does it all come from? Are these dogmas? What is the original revelation?

Wamster · 14/03/2012 10:47

Mum2Luke. Fair enough. At least you are being true to your faith.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 10:49

This is true surely the bible says nothing of contraceptive it wasn't invented then.
As for the marriage, a marriage is religious and should therefore be decided by the individual churches. If the church says no then you cant marry there. That seems fair.

Lividcatholic · 14/03/2012 10:50

Mum2luke, you have demonstrated part of the reason I feel so mad about this! This is NOT about gay people marrying in church, it is about the civil union of two people being known as marriage, regardless of the genitalia of those two people. It is not about religious ceremonies in church but I know here are so many people who have signed that petition who are under the same impression you are and you can be damn sure the church is happy about this misconception!

Lividcatholic · 14/03/2012 10:52

A marriage is NOT religious! It is only religious if it is conducted in a place of worship. This is about civil marriage, which has no religious elements to it at all.

MrsHoarder · 14/03/2012 10:53

Mum2Luke this is not about the right for gay marriages to take place in church, but for a change in the law so that gay people can have a marriage at all, instead of the two-level system the UK has at the moment.

The Catholic Church will still be free to decide (as all religious institutions are) who can get married within the Church, the campaign is to stop these marriages taking place outside the church and for non-catholics.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 10:54

A marriage is a religious ceremony, it always has been even before christianity, a marriage is the joining of two people under the gaze of a higher being. So if the faith in question does not approve of gay marriage then it shouldn't be allowed.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 10:55

Surely those in a civil partnership have no less rights then those of a married couple and are both treated equally...

Northey · 14/03/2012 10:55

Wamster, I might be wrong but I honestly don't think any of the pronouncements on gay relationships and marriage have been made under the mantle of papal infallibility. Unless you can point me to one?

I'm quite prepared to be told I'm wrong about this, of course, what with my preference for not spending every evening reading every bit of material that comes out of the Vatican...

chipmonkey · 14/03/2012 10:57

Mum2luke. You are OK with gays getting married just not in the church. But this letter is about the bishops' opposition to the governments plan for gay marriage. They are opposing civil marriage for gays. The letter says nothing about gays getting married in church, which is a whole different issue.

chipmonkey · 14/03/2012 10:59

And IMO, if straight people can have a civil marriage ceremony, then that same option should be open to gay people. Equality for all.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 10:59

As long as both a civil partnership and a marriage have the same rights under the law I dont belive the government should call it a marriage there is no need.

Lividcatholic · 14/03/2012 10:59

It isn't about marriage in churches! If any religion doesn't want to marry gay people in their place of worship, then that is up to them, there are not many people disputing that. Civil marriages in a civil registry office where any religious element is actually banned by law, are currently not available to people in a same sex relationship. Some people want that to change so that civil marriage is open to any couple. The Catholic church have waded in to object on the grounds of their religion and don't want the civil laws to change. It has nothing to do with religious marriages!

Northey · 14/03/2012 11:02

There is a need though, justforme. It's inequitable and demeaning to gay people to be told they can't describe their civil union as a marriage. And vice versa for straight people who want to call their unions civil partnerships.

Missy44 · 14/03/2012 11:03

ImproperlyAquinted, I couldn't agree with you more! I am straight and have just got engaged. My collegue who sits next to me in work is the same age, same religion, same mentality as me, but she can't get married to the person she loves because she loves a woman. I can't see why this is fair

My marriage will not be guaranteed a child, although we would be blessed to have them. My marriage will not be guaranteed anything. What my marriage will be, is a chance for us to make promises to each other, and to affirm our love to one another.

For all those who say that marriage and civil partnership are the same thing, they aren't. Marriage means you have to make public vows, civil partnerships dont, you can just sign a piece of paper in a solicitors office. A marriage can be dissolved if one person is unfaithful, a civil partnership can't. When your spouse passes away, the pension payments will be paid to you, when your civil partner dies, this will only be legally enforced from the day that civil partnerships were made legal in the UK.

When we talk about marriage and traditions, there are many that I'd much rather forget about. Traditionally a wife was seen as her husbands property, she had to promise to 'obey' him, and wasn't seen as an equal. When I marry, I want to do so as a loving, equal partner, but hey, maybe I'm part of the downfall of society!

Wamster · 14/03/2012 11:03

Exactly, JustForMe, CP's offer same rights as marriage and there is no way that gay marriage is going to allowed in catholicism. So why upset the applecart? Waste of time. I'm happy because gay people have access to legal rights like married people and the 'big' religions are OK with civil partnerships but not marriage.

And, to be frank, I don't care if normal catholics think gay marriage is OK-the 'big bosses' like the bishops and the biggest one of 'em all -the Pope- have spoken: gay marriage is against the Catholic god. Gay marriages won't be allowed. End of.

Missy44 · 14/03/2012 11:04

And one last thing, the consultation is not about getting married in church

Lividcatholic · 14/03/2012 11:05

And by that same token, if we are saying that it is ok for the catholic church to say that gay marriage should not be legal, they should be allowed to say that any marriage which doesnt meet their criteria is illegal. The divorcees who married in the Methodist church, the infertile man who married his girlfriend in the registry office, the Jewish couple who have not been baptised etc. etc.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:06

I dont think its right that there are differences between the dissolving of union and your rights. They should be the SAME.
But I still believe they should have seperate names but with all the same rights.

Wamster · 14/03/2012 11:08

So there are no public vows, big deal. Hmm And unfaithfullness can always be put under heading of 'unreasonable behaviour'.
And of course pension payments can only be enforced from the day that civil partnerships were made legal. You can't enforce pension payments BEFORE that time. It's illogical to do so!

I have signed the anti-gay marriage petition because I am sick of everybody wanting their own way all the time and expecting every system to suit them exactly. Gay people have civil partnerships which offer same rights as marriage. They can't expect the world to suit them exactly.