Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

that's probably too nuanced codandchops

Northey :o :o

[embarrassed]

Gah.

No thanks, Northey, I find most religions to be stupid but accept that some are really OK-Quakerism and the Jewish faith I have no real problem with. Nor the C of E. Catholicism, though: it makes me shudder. Although, if I were to become a catholic, I'd at least accept the basics of the faith. Unlike you, of course.

I'm not saying here that Catholics should accept everything dictated to them by the Vatican. If a Catholic says: 'I find the way that the child abuse issue has been covered up to be abhorrent' I TOTALLY AGREE.

Child abuse is abhorrent and certainly NOT part of the catholic faith. If, however, they think gay marriage is acceptable, I think: 'You disagree with one of the sacraments of the faith. Why the heck are you a Catholic?'

Like I said, 'free with 10 packets of crisps'.

Oh well, hang on a minute...

For all your earlier posts you've been saying that Catholics must agree with the words and actions of those in the hierarchy, otherwise they are not real Catholics. And now you are saying that of course the cover up of child abuse shouldn't be accepted. So, dare we hope that you are starting to grasp that there are situations where a catholic might very reasonably exercise her own judgement about things the church says and does?

If the RCC is so bigoted that you shudder, why do you think that the government should respect its views on gay marriage, especially as changing the civil law doesn't affect how the RCC operates?

No. Because the abuse of children is NOT part of the Catholic faith. Nowhere in the catholic faith does it say it is acceptable to abuse children.

Marriage being the union of one man and one woman IS part of the Catholic faith.

Catholics have NEVER signed up to the abuse of children being acceptable, they have, however, signed up to the notion that marriage is the union of one man and woman. And should not be surprised if the church asks them to support that view.

The priests and bishops who conspired to cover up child abuse effectively said that it was ok, though. So if you are happy for us to disagree with them on that, why are you not happy for us to disagree with them on the question of how the uk frames its marriage laws?

Northey I think you are being obtuse here: you simply cannot compare child abuse with marriage within the RC church.

Every catholic has a right (and duty) to speak out about child abuse because it is primarily (by a million miles) morally wrong AND not part of their faith.

No catholic worthy of the name is right to speak out about same sex marriage. To do so, is to deny the sacrament of the union of marriage being between one man and one woman.

Don't you think it's morally wrong to deny people things on the grounds of their sexuality?

your views obviously make perfect sense to you wamster but you need to acknowledge that they lack the weight and value of those formed through the lived experience of either growing up within the faith (which is not a free choice of course) or being gay or both - it's extraordinary that you consider your half-formed pronouncements about what it means to be Catholic and or gay to have any worth at all when you are so out of your depth

There is a particular angle from which you CAN compare the two issues, and that is the fact that both involve situations where ordinary Catholics were told by the Church hierarchy what they should think or do about something.

You can only be gay within the catholic church if you are celibate. End of story. EVERY single piece of catholic literature says so.

MightyNice. Accept it. The Catholic god thinks homosexuality to be a disorder and is only acceptable if the urges are not acted upon.

Northey. No, but as a catholic, you surely do?

Yep, homosexuality is a disordered condition to be treated compassionately but those that suffer from their disorder should not have sex. Pretty clear, I think: The catholic god treats homosexuals as second-class citizens to be pitied.

again you confuse prescription with practice

Yes, compassion is important in all sorts of situations, as I remid myself frequently at the moment.

The Catholic God (just God - not sure He would deem himself Catholic or anything else) welcomes everyone Wamster - the issue here is not God but man. And as a Catholic I don't treat anyone as a second class citizen either.

MIghtyNice Oh by that you mean nobody listens to the church's teachings? Which of course begs the question: why on earth pretend to be a catholic?

LeninGrad, No I signed the petition because I dislike illogicality: cp's are no different to civil marriage so any further intervention is necessary.

To answer that, could I refer you to half of the preceding 673 posts on here where people have tried to explain just that?

Did you not understand what they were saying? Or was there some additional element you need to have clarified?

The Catholic God may welcome everybody. It does not, however, accept practising homosexuality: it is a disorder. Gays are welcome only if they remain celibate, ergo, gay marriage is forbidden!