Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

I think people, and the church, are entitled to their opinion.

I'm not RC but I was encouraged to hear this on the news today.

We are being fairly passive about this in our CofE church. We have a petition to sign, but you have to discover it first.

We are pretty gung-ho about marriage. We don't mention the H word, but do not usually allow co-habiting couples in any position of teaching or leadership.

Agree with it and signed the petition.

Thought it was horrific.

There was and is no need at all. It was met with a very stony silence in mass this morning.

Can you expand on that, pottering?

Marriage is a vehicle for procreation. 2 blokes wanting to live together isnt a marriage. Its a loving relationship but it cant be a marriage.

I see no problem with 'gay marriage'. No one referred to my marriage as a 'straight marriage'. It's just marriage, and the God of love I believe in believes that that sanctity can be applied to anyone who loves. The children argument is nonsensical unless you believe that those who enter into marriage knowing they are infertile also have no right to be blessed in church.

Weevils - so my friend who had a hysterectomy at 15 should have had a civil ceremony?

I think it was well received in our parish, after reading the letter, our parish priest spent some time explaining that this was not about the rights and wrongs of same sex couples, simply about the union of one man and one woman 'to the exclusion of all others'.

Or, for example, a widowed woman wanting to marry again at the age of 70?

I disagree with it and it's the sort of thing that makes me think very carefully about switching to a different Christian church. I suppose I agree that the church has the right to its opinion, but it doesn't recognise how many of its members live in a different world. I know several gay Catholics in committed relationships, and the most devout people I know have used contraception. Also I think that religion generally has no place in law making, which is for the elected government.

Maybe not the best thought out response, am on the .

I was having a wee glass of wine of Friday night with a few friends in the house. I could hear someone talking about the bishop's letter and all the atrocities the catholic church has committed. Meanwhile I carried on with my conversation with someone else.

Then one friend asked me for my thoughts. I said I didn't agree with everything the catholic church preaches and I don't agree with the church objecting to gay marriage. This doesn't mean that I will stop going to church or raising my children in the catholic faith.

One friend said she felt that it was then my responsibility to challenge the catholic church on this stance.

Her comment really stung. I wanted to start a thread on here about it. How do I challenge it. I could never stand up during mass and challenge it. I could write to the vatican but really will this change things?

I objected today by not attending mass today. I know kind of taking my nose off to spite my face and achieving nothing.

Mrsmeanor - what is the petition?

Pottering - but do you think that meant the majority at mass didn't agree with it?

We were just given it to take home at the end of Mass but asked to sign the petition on the way out. NOt having read the letter properly, I did not sign the petition and I doubt I will sign it now that I have read the letter.

The first half seemed to go on about our understanding of marriage as a union between one man and one woman. Understandings can change over the years......

I also don't think the Catholic church or any other religion should be making the laws of the land, that is for the elected governments.

I would not expect the Catholic Church to conduct gay weddings (though if it does I would not object, but I don't see that it can say what happens at a civil cermony.

The religious and civil elements of marriage need to kept separate.

I felt it reduced my marriage to a means to reproduce, even though I can't any more. I don't think it does marriage any good to reduce it to genes and genitals. There was a lot about tradition but no explanation as to how something is traditional then it is automatically right or good. I thought it was dismissive of 'non-productive' marriages and said that they didn't contribute to society. If marriage is so great then why deny it to any segment of society? Why do married people need to reproduce in order to contribute to society?

The Archbishop says he has a duty to defend married people, which is nice, but I don't think he is defending me. His definition of my marriage just doesn't match mine.

I feel very strongly about this. I consider myself Catholic, although not regularly practising, my children are in Catholic school. I am livid that this message has been put out in my name as a Catholic. I decided tonight to go to mass, to see if it was true that it would read out in every church in the county. The priest started to talk and say he was about to read out the statement and I couldn't help myself, I muttered under my breath that I couldn't listen to it ( I had read the letter online) I stood up, walked to the door and in a loutish voice ( I didnt shout but everyone could hear) "I am ashamed to be Catholic!" and then I left! I am in shock at my own behaviour but I was so angry that this has been allowed. The Catholic Chuch, by putting out this statement, have supported the bishop who said gay marriage was abhorrent and as immoral as slavery! I now need a stiff drink and a cigarette...

*loudish not loutish...although some may disagree

I won't be signing the petition.

I also think religious and legal marriage should be separate. I don't expect the church to marry same sex couples, but I certainly expect the state to.

I think church weddings (of all flavours) should be sacramental/ceremonial (depending on flavour!) only, and if you want your marriage recognised in law, then you have a civil marriage as well.

I would not like to see religious institutions being forced to conduct ceremonies for gay people. Catholic Adoption Agencies were forced to close due to a similiar issue.

The religious and civil elements of marriage need to kept separate.

This is the real key to this whole mess, imo. In most other European countries everyone has to get married in a register office. It's the civil ceremony that makes you legally married. If you then want to have a religious ceremony that has some sacramental, symbolic or other religious meaning for you then you are free to do so, once you have obtained the civil marriage certificate.

The mess in the UK arises because of the historic status of the CofE as the established church, meaning that a CoE ceremony was the only legitmate way to get married. Then more recently other denominations and faiths' ceremonies have had the same status given to them. Which is all nice and egalitarian, but has the huge downside that all manner of faith groups now have a say in what constitutes a legal marriage/civil partnership.

The logical thing to do would be to sever the link between religious ceremonies and civil ones. Then state ceremonies could be for either same-sex or heterosexual couples (whether you call it marriage or civil partnership is a matter of semantics, really), and people who have strong religious beliefs could then be free to have a sacramental marriage according to their own faith tradition.

The consultation paper is not about forcing religious institutions to conduct gay marriage, its about the governments plans to change civil partnerships into marriages ie in registry offices or hotels with a registrar, like 'straight' marriages.

FallenMadona and Pollymorfic, I agree. Why the church recognises civil marriage is a mystery to me. It seems to cause no end of problems

Our priest simply read it out - he made no comment. The few I spoke to after Mass said that they were in two minds about it.

I thought more could have been written about the position of those who were bereaved or whose relationships had suffered. There was something about the latter often showing courage and fidelity (which is often true) but of course there are perhaps just as many whose marriages simply aren't sustainable, under any circumstances. There was no overt (or really even covert) mention of them. And certainly no words of encouragement (or the like) for those who've re-married.

I think Pottering has a point - marriage is marriage. Mine is sacred and that's not because it's a straight one, it's because it's sanctified by God who helps me, in good times and less good times, uphold a loving relationship.

DH, who's from another tradition, can't see how a change in the law would fundamentally change the nature of marriage.

Im not signing it either, I can see where the church is coming from,and the reasons behind there way of thinking , they have every right to refuse to conduct gay weddings
BUT, they have no right to inflict there opnions on the rest of society.

In our parish it wasn't even read out: the priest mentioned during the notices at the end of Mass that the letter was available in the porch for people to take home if they wished. [hurrah]

I can in fact see why the church are getting het up about the issue. It's not even principally about homophobia, it's about the fact that the church's understanding of marriage is so different from the secular one. You can kind of sweep that under the carpet with secular ceremonies for heterosexuals, but once you equate civil marriage with civil partnerships, ie the same for gay and heterosexuals, there's really no getting away from that gulf in understanding of what marriage is all about.

Clearly there's no logical reason to not put gay and straight partnerships on the same footing in legal terms (and they shouldn't have fudged this when civ. partnerships where first brought in, tbh). Equally clearly the Catholic understanding of marriage is not going to be able to accommodate same-sex ceremonies.

The obvious solution is to sever the link between church weddings and civil ceremonies, at which point the difference between secular legal marriage and Catholic (or other religious) sacramental marriage ceases to be a problem. But that would be too simple.

Livid - a word in support of what you did - it takes guts to do that. Sometimes the church seems to take us for granted, or as rather foolish and making it clear, in whatever ways we deem it necessary to do, that we're not is the right thing to do.

IA:"I felt it reduced my marriage to a means to reproduce ..." - spot on - that's how I felt, too.