Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

It's not as if you're all a nice bunch of tolerant Quakers here. Do you think I'd even be arguing if you were? .

I accept that Quakers have no issue with homosexuality. But that Catholicism very much does. Fgs, some people don't even follow the basics of their own professed religion. It would be funny if it wasn't so awful.

are you capable of nuanced thought wamster? Is everything one extreme or the other? you sound like a cruel parody of the sort of personality disorder that can only think in black and white

what do you think it means to be a Catholic, or a Jew - are reform Jews not Jewish because they have lesbian rabbis and some of them don't keep a kosher kitchen at home? Are they less Jewish than their United counterparts or are you only truly Jewish if you are Orthodox?

In the same way there are many many routes to explore and apply faith within Catholicism, there are Catholics for Change, Catholics for Choice, Charismatic Catholics, Jesuits, Opus Dei. There is tremendous diversity within this as there is in all religions. There is no consensus within Buddhism either, there is disagreement on the basic precepts across different groups.

I don't understand what you find so difficult about this.

Is there something in particular you are trying to get us to say, or agree to?

Catholicism is not about nuanced thought. Join the quakers if you want that.

what is it about then?

I'll try to dismiss over two millennia of Catholic thought in the interests of humouring you because your ignorance is breathtaking

I've spent a couple of hours reading through this thread and found the experience very moving.

On the strength of what you've said and after years of frustrating effort to remain with the Church, I've started a blog called "Will Pray, Won't Pay". Please take a look and comment if you think it would be useful.

willpraywontpay.blogspot.fr/2012/03/manifesto-prompted-by-mumsnet.html

Best wishes, and thanks for your contributions to this thread.

Robin :(

"I cannot leave the Church. It is not a club whose membership I forfeit when I don't obey the rules. I'm a member of the Church by baptism when I became a child of God. I cannot become an un-child of a loving God who will forever tenderly seek me out."

wamster What is the point of us believing in a soul and having a conscience if we cannot have nuanced thought?

Wamster 'Quakerism and the Jewish faith I have no problem with, nor the C of E.'

Why's that then? I'm sure no reasonable person has a problem with Quakers, but what is it about the others that exempts them from 'religion is stupid'?

Just curious.

wamster there is a whole section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church here about conscience. It is clear that we are encouraged to use our conscience and also have an obligation to inform it.
To me, the first paragraph (1776) speaks greatly about the personal relationship with God that I am encouraged to have as a Catholic and how that will help inform my conscience

Robin - I will go and have a look at your blog....

She says it in her post of 12.13.47 today, jjkm.

What do you mean by "guided directly by God"? Do you mean guided by God as individuals, or do you mean guided by God through the Pope or something?

I believe all Catholics (all Christians in fact) try to inform their conscience, thoughts and actions from God. This includes the laity, Archbishops and the Pope. We are human though and sometimes get it wrong and may even sometimes choose to consciously go against what we believe God is telling us or asking of us. (I don't know of any Christian that claims to be the perfect follower of Christ!)

In terms of the Pope, then yes I believe he is guided by God just like the rest of us. As the leader of the Church, I take what he says seriously but it is still important that I question it and make the decision that I believe is right according to my informed conscience. As far as I am aware, the only exception to this will be the contents of The Creed and any statements that the Pope may make that are ex Cathedra where the RC Church teaches that these are infallible. Therefore as a Catholic, I need to either be able to accept these or if I struggle, I would discuss with my priest and / or fellow Catholics to see why they agree and I don't.

Well, there are certain matters of faith on which the Pope has been guided by God and is the guide for the whole church and is infallible (when speaking as infallible).

On everything else, I personally don't think there's anything that prevents us having a personal relationship with God and, through that relationship, trying to found our own way through matters of morality.

Or what SES said.

Just off the top of my head JJkm -- Catholics believe the Church is essentially the body of Christ here on earth, founded by God in the person of Jesus, guided by God in the person of the Holy Spirit and therefore inseparable from God. Leadership of the Church is visible in the Apostles and their successors, and invisible - the Holy Spirit. In order for that unity with God to be assured, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church claims the teaching, governing and liturgical powers that are necessary to achieve this end.

mathanxiety, Yes, that sums up my understanding.

So I ask again to anybody who is still reading this: Given this, how can a catholic believe that gay marriage to be acceptable? Their church has said it is wrong!

It is surely a fundamental part of the RC faith to believe in the grace of god being passed through the holy union of marriage between man and woman to produce children?

KEY POINT: This belief is not in isolation: it is tied up with no sex before marriage, masturbation being wrong, contraception being wrong as sex is for reproduction.

Honest to goodness: how on earth anybody can call themselves a Catholic and be pro gay marriage, pro contraception, pro sex before marriage - it is just fecking ridiculous.
I know that the church is sympathetic to homosexuality and doesn't-as I had previously though- condemn them to hell. I was wrong about that, I admit.
But it's definitely NOT acceptable for them to act out of their desires because sex outside of marriage is wrong and they can never marry because marriage is between a man and a woman to reproduce. So, logically, celibacy is the only choice! How can gay people reproduce naturally, anyway?!

Even though I am an atheist, I have to say all of this makes complete sense in the context of catholicism!

And, sorry, belief in a loving god is all very well and good but, really, Catholicism is about MORE than that.

Gay civil marriage or civil partnership -- if it's the law of the land 'give unto Caesar what is Caesar's...'

Religious marriage within the church -- '..and give unto God what is God's'. ?

The Catholic Church view of sex is more nuanced than 'sex is for reproduction'. There is a difference between, for instance, choosing contraception for yourself as an individual, maybe because it is for you the lesser of two evils, and being 'pro-contraception'. A close look at the Catechism reveals guidance for pastoral care and for individuals when making their decisions that allows for many different factors to be taken into account.

In the context of Catholicism, the various stances on gay marriage etc., make sense. Catholicism does emphasise the 'narrow gate', for all Catholics, straight as well as gay. But the Church also recognises human weakness and offers forgiveness for anyone seeking it.

mathanxiety - yes, you are right about the Catholic Church not being as completely black and white as some people think. This is part of where we are encouraged to think for ourselves and make informed decisions.
I also agree that the Catholic Church does not see homosexual acts as any more a sin that using contraception, lying, cheating, dishonouring God, spreading malicious gossip, etc.

jjkm - as I have said earlier on in the thread, I can understand the stance the RC Church takes but I struggle to believe that I should judge others for what they do. I also believe that separating sacramental marriage from legal marriage would solve many issues.
What I said on Friday was:
Personally on this matter I am still struggling. I understand why the RC church has decided to clearly state it's viewpoint and that it gets it's view from its teachings on marriage. I do see marriage within the church as sacramental. I understand that the concern of many bishops (RC & CofE) is the diluting down of what they see as their definition of marriage.

However, this is their definition of marriage within Christianity and I do not know if Jesus were here on earth now, how he would be responding. From my personal experience and what I read in the Gospels, he would respond with love. I do not think he would be interested in whether a couple have passed some kind of test of compliance with rules, in order for them to remain full members of Christianity. It is what the individual's intent and heart says - using their informed conscience that is important. I do not feel that the crux of my faith is to sit in judgement on others in this issue.