Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

CelticPromise, what a lovely thing to say! Thank you. And likewise (on both counts).

Is the text of this letter available online please? I'm curious to know what it, and the petitions that have been mentioned, actually say. I assume in similar vein to what I heard one of the bishops saying on the radio last week?

There is nothing arrogant about stating that Catholicism finds gay marriage to be ridiculous. Nothing at all. It DOES, it just does. It clearly says that marriage is a union of the opposite sexes.

I am actually being humble here: I am an atheist, but I accept fully that the Catholics are against marriage.

What IS arrogant is lay Catholics thinking they know more than bishops who spend all their time within the faith!

Homosexuality is a disorder within the Catholic faith. An abuse of the human nature. Catholics views NOT mine.

@Wamster I hate the way some atheists get pissed off if lay catholics don't behave in a caricaturish way. Then suggest they aren't 'real' catholics. Challenging a few of your views is it?

No, it is not challenging my views-just confirms to me that people pick and choose which bits of religion they want to believe.
Gay marriage is abhorrent in Catholicism, if people don't believe this then I really cannot see how they can be Catholics.

God's represntative on earth -the Pope himself- has said that gay marriage is wrong. Any catholic who disagree is disobeying the word of god.

But Wamster, churches can change. Once upon a time Catholic priests were allowed to marry. Then they were not. This, as far as I know had little to do with theology and more to do with the church not wanting to be financially responsible for priests' families. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say that his apostles should not marry. Nowhere does he say that gay people shouldn't marry. Lay Catholics are as entitled to their opinion as to what Jesus said as any bishop, particularly as Jesus rarely talked in riddles.

God's representative on earth has come out against gay marriage as little as 4 days ago. Does the phrase 'God's representative on earth' mean nothing anymore? Even as an atheist, I see the significance of this.

He is the person passing on God's will onto catholics. If catholics cannot accept the Pope's views, then, yes, I think: why are they even catholics?

Another brought up Catholic, really struggling with the insitution of the Church itself.

On the one hand I know brave & courageous nuns delivering hope, aid & comfort in the most awful & deprived parts of the world & on the other hand I am horrified by the Church's hierarchy.

When I think of the ludicrous pronouncement about Harry Potter from the Vatican, the unspeakable abuse that went on in Catholic children's homes in Ireland & the UK and the intolerance of gays, I feel so alienated. I find it hard to believe in God, because I struggle to understand how an all loving God could be represented on earth but such a bunch of hypocrites.

This thread has been very helpful, because it reassures me to know that they polite faces I see on the occasions I do go to mass, may feel as I do.

Is it something you want to understand, wamster? If so, we can carry on trying to explain it to you. If not, then why worry? We can see ourselves as Catholic, you can see us as non-Catholics and we can just not really worry about the fact we disagree.

If you cannot accept the Pope's pronouncement on gay marriage i.e. that it is abhorrent then, no, you are not catholics.

Catholicism requires an intermediary human being to communicate with God. It's not like the Anglican church where people need no intermediary.

If you cannot accept the views of the Pope, then I seriously think that you're not really a catholic.

Which is why so many people leave in disillusionment and 'lapse.'

Do you believe you know more the Cardinal Newman when he said 'conscience first, and then the Pope'? Do you believe you know more than JP II when he said no man can hold a view which is not his own? Picking and choosing is part of the faith, its called having a conscience and is protected by Catholic doctrine. The church isn't a totalitarian regime. Do you believe that every single member of the Catholic hierarchy is of one mind? Let alone the 1 billion strong laity. Were St. Augustine of Hippo's writings wrong or invalid? Or those of Thomas Aquinas? This argument amongst Catholics is not a childish 'the Pope says so so it must be true' debate. Its about whether what some senior church figure are declaring is objectively true or if it is bollocks a subjective truth. We are taught in faith to follow our conscience and act in our best judgement. Thats the part of Catholicism that rarely makes headlines. But to do that then we need to think, to debate and to experience and accept that because something is true to you or to someone else then it doesn't mean it is true.

Because, Wamster, most catholics know that the only people that believe that the Pope is God's representative on earth are a certain proportion of the clergy. I mean, come on, no-one in their right minds would believe the Borgias, for example, were representative of God at all!

They are Catholics because they believe in the message of Jesus and are not necessarily bothered by who runs the building they go to worship Him in.

I am not christian and have a lesbian friend but I think politics should not impose itself on religion.
If churches wish to refuse gay marriage they should be allowed to do so.

Bah - speedy posters. I was applauding ImproperlyAcquainted there. Just to be clear.

I believe that the Pope is God's representative on earth. If you don't, then I suggest you leave catholicism because you clearly do not understand this very basic fact about the faith.

.

I am on a journey into the Catholic church, and I am doing so while openly saying that I don't agree with the church on some key issues. I am not a sheep taking as gospel all the stuff they preach. I am Christian and I don't make a habit of judging others.

Oh and my oldest male friend is gay and I love Harry Potter.

From my perspective change will only come from within.

chipmonkey, where I come unstuck though, is that believing in Jesus's teachings doesn't necessarily make me Catholic. How much of the Church's teachings can you disagree with & still be Catholic?
I don't have any answers, but these are questions I often wonder.

I do believe that the Pope is God's representative on earth, wamster. So what is the next problem you need to have dealt with?

Whats wrong with Harry Potter?
Another side...The contents of the bible and which gospels went in were decided by romans not god so therefore you can pick and choose in a sense.

Exactly, PostBellumBugsy, I mean, come on, thinking that gay marriage is OK is really against catholicism, isn't it. Surely if a catholic agrees with gay marriage they have reached the point where even they themselves question how much of a catholic they are?

Northey If, as you agree, the Pope is god's representative on earth and he has declared gay marriage is wrong, then surely you believe that the Pope is relaying God's views on the matter? Therefore gay marriage is against Catholicism?

Sorry, but my logic here is flawless-you simply cannot agree with gay marriage if you believe the Pope to be god's representative on earth.

Regarding Harry Potter: From the Christian Post

The Vatican offered its latest view on the good vs. evil debate over the immensely popular Harry Potter series in a recent edition of its newspaper, headlining an article by an expert in English literature who calls the teen wizard "the wrong kind of hero."

In the article, "The Double Face of Harry Potter," published by the Vatican's official newspaper L'Osservatore Romano this week, Edoardo Rialti writes about the harmful effects of the "half-truth" messages presented by JK Rowling in the Potter saga.

Rialti?s attack echoes the sentiment of Pope Benedict XVI, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who voiced fears in 2003 that the "subtle seductions" contained in the Potter series could "corrupt the Christian faith" in impressionable young children.

Young Christian minds will "lose the spirit of discernment between good and evil and that they will not have the necessary strength and knowledge to withstand the temptations to evil," Ratzinger wrote in a March 2003 letter to German Catholic sociologist Gabriele Kuby, author of the book Harry Potter - Good or Evil.

Rialti writes that many have tried to establish a parallel between the "fantasy masterpieces" JR Tolkein's ?Lord of the Rings? and CS Lewis ?Narnia? books with the Potter series. He argues that other than "superficially apparent common points," there is nothing similar between them.

Harry Potter "transmits a vision of the world and the human being full of deep mistakes and dangerous suggestions, even more seductive since it is mixed with half-truths and compelling story-telling," describes Rialti.

Actually, the papacy cannot impose as dogma anything not explicitly contained in the original revelation. The papacy can have an opinion on what St. Paul really meant or whether AC is better than Inter but neither Religious or laity are under any obligation to take it as gospel, if you will pardon the pun. Before Pope John Paul II died, there was talk of a complete redefining of Petrine ministry. The Pope was defined by Pope Gregory as 'the servant of the servants of God'.