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Original poster

Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

700 replies

ImproperlyAcquainted · 11/03/2012 16:36

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

OP posts:

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:09

lividcatholic Its not just about the religious aspects. Religion should weigh in on who can marry in their OWN church but a marriage should be between a man and a woman and a civil partnership can be between anyone of any gender but both have the same rights.

GrimmaTheNome · 14/03/2012 11:13

A marriage is a religious ceremony, it always has been even before christianity
Not really. Roman marriage was a legal contract. AFAIK religion wasn't fundamental to the Greeks' concept of marraige either.

Marriage is not a religious ceremony, its a legal one. Religions can add their own ceremonies on top if they choose, and apply whatever rules they want to that part.

PostBellumBugsy · 14/03/2012 11:14

I may be getting my knickers in a twist here - but if the Catholic church believes that homosexuality is wrong, as I believe it does - how can it possibly do anything other than argue that Catholics should object to legal marriage between two gay people?

I disagree wholeheartedly, as I do with so many other teachings of the Church - but surely the Church itself has to stand by its doctrine and would expect its believers to do the same?

This is where I come so unstuck, because I wonder how much you can disagree with & yet still be a Catholic?

Hence, I am wondering who makes the rules? Is it actually a fundamental part of the Catholic faith to believe homosexuality is wrong & sinful? Where are these things written down?

Original poster

ImproperlyAcquainted · 14/03/2012 11:14

" I think it is pretty safe to say that the Pope's comments on gay marriage are spoken as god's representative on earth and as the word of God."

Why on earth would you think that, seriously? Do you have any idea about the role of the papacy at all? Can you point all us ignorant Catholics to the specific part of the gospel that the pope is explaining?

OP posts:

GrimmaTheNome · 14/03/2012 11:15

a marriage should be between a man and a woman
says who? Says some (not all) religious leaders. The RC can define its own sacrement of marriage as between a man and a woman. It cannot lay down the law for everyone.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:15

It may have been a contract but back then nobody was agnostic so a marriage still took place as a religious ceremony under a deity

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:17

GrimmaTheNome I have a lesbian friend and am not christian but I still believe that a marriage has always between between a man and a woman and should stay that way. As long as the rights are the same for both dont change the law.

Lividcatholic · 14/03/2012 11:17

Justforme, that is part of the point, they don't have the same rights and if they do make both equal in the eyes of the law, why not give them the same name? If a gay couple buy a house, the don't get a gay mortgage, they gt a mortgage, of a gay man commits robbery, the law doesnt state it's gay robbery, it is just robbery, a gay woman who passes her driving test doesn't then become a legal gay driver, they become a driver. If by your reasoning they should be afforded the same civil legal rights why call it something other than what it is - marriage!

GrimmaTheNome · 14/03/2012 11:18

I am sick of everybody wanting their own way all the time and expecting every system to suit them exactly

I'm a lot sicker of religious leaders doing it than gay people. Homosexuality is intrinsic; religious belief may seem to be but isn't. When it comes to balancing rights, the former should trump the latter, as it does with other intrinsics such as gender and race.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:20

Your right they dont call all those other things gay and they do need to make both equal in the eyes of the law but there is no need to change the name, you can tell your friends your married but on paper its a partnership why should it matter.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Northey · 14/03/2012 11:20

God knows, Bugsy. You can try wading through all the Vatican's publications since forever (most of the recent stuff is on the Vatican website, I think). But I really wouldn't fancy it myself. Or there are numerous commentaries written about these issues by church insiders (expensive to buy, but you could read the odd page standing up in a catholic bookshop). Or there are a few catholic blogs out there.

I think the core thing to believe is the creed.

dreamygirl · 14/03/2012 11:20

Actually it does something have to do with "religious" marriages. Most people who marry in a church are simultaneously legally married because the person officiating is a licensed registrar. C of E ministers are automatically licensed (not sure about Catholic), other ministers sometimes become registrars for convenience. Otherwise if you are married in another kind of church/by another kind of minister, you either have to have a registrar present or you must have a civil marriage at another time, also if the building you choose isn't licensed.
Currently ministers of religion are exempt from performing civil partnerships on religious grounds, they only have to do marriage. If all unions of this type become defined as marriage, it's difficult to see how any kind of legal differentiation could be made between unions traditionally defined as marriages and the marriages which were formerly known as civil partnerships. This is why people in the church are concerned about being obliged to perform or celebrate same-gender unions in the future when it would be against their conscience or belief to do so.

GrimmaTheNome · 14/03/2012 11:22

'nobody was agnostic ' nonsense. And there are non-theistic religions which predate christianity.

'I still believe that a marriage has always between between a man and a woman and should stay that way'
You can believe that, just as I don't - you can't state as fact that this is what marriage is in perpetuity - its just your opinion.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:22

On your point of gay being intrinsic... if it was suppose to be natural they would be able to reproduce so from a naturalist/biological point of view gay is not natural and would result in the extinction of a species. If you cant breed in a species your genes die out and aren't strong enough. Intrinsics cant trump religion not in this case.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:23

Ok give me a culture predating christianity that was atheist

GrimmaTheNome · 14/03/2012 11:23

Ok give me a culture predating christianity that was atheist
Buddhism.

springchickennugget · 14/03/2012 11:25

@justforme she said non-theistic, not atheistic.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:25

Buddhism is a religion with a belief system

GrimmaTheNome · 14/03/2012 11:26

On your point of gay being intrinsic... if it was suppose to be natural they would be able to reproduce so from a naturalist/biological point of view gay is not natural and would result in the extinction of a species.

You're not any sort of biologist are you? There are plenty of examples of homosexuality in non-human species, and you can see why at a group level it may have evolutionary advantages. There's a lot more to evolution by natural selection than individuals passing on their own genes.

LeninGrad · 14/03/2012 11:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lividcatholic · 14/03/2012 11:26

You are missing the point. Why not call it marriage? That is what it is. It is not about people "getting their own way" it is about equality in the eyes of the law and as human beings. Gay people work, pay their taxes and contribute to society in the same way that heterosexual people do, why are they not afforded the same rights in law? When I married my husband I earned the LEGAL right to say that I was married, I don't say I am in a partnership, although obviously I am, I say I am married, I say this on all legal documentation where my marital status is required. I am not defined by my marriage but it is an important part of my identity. That isnt the case for everyone but for me it is. If I was gay and "married" it would be just as important and I would like to legally. E able to remove the inverted commas from around it.

Wamster · 14/03/2012 11:27

Improperly, if you think gay marriage is OK, that is fine, I don't -not for religious reasons, but because I think that CP's are good enough and don't, funnily enough, take pleasure in upsetting religions who believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

Good enough is good enough.

I don't really care what you think, anyway, you are not a Bishop or the Pope (at least I don't think you are) and these are the guys with the power and they disagree with gay marriage so there you go-for once I AGREE with the catholic church.

There simply is not going to be any gay marriage in Catholic churches. It would make a complete mockery of the catholic faith to allow them.

Northey · 14/03/2012 11:27

But without a deity.

JustForMe · 14/03/2012 11:27

Correct there is but two animals of the same gender cant reproduce so therefore the species would die out eventually if it was passed on leading to extinction. Natural selection does involve reproduction at some point.

PostBellumBugsy · 14/03/2012 11:29

Northey, but the Creed says "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church" - does that not mean we have to believe the teachings of that church?

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