Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

No it doesn't make it heterophobic because RC fully supports heterosexual marriage. Utterly and completely. In fact marriage is a conduit through which the grace of God passes through (and all that)

You're right, though, the Catholic church is not the WI. It's job is not to be politically correct and please everybody.

All I can say is that if I were brought up in the catholic faith I would have left it by now as I could not live with the amount of self-deception and cognitive dissonance I would have to undertake because I believe that homosexuality is wholly natural and acceptable. Sorry, but catholicism does not.

Last word from this on my part goes to Father Ted (the Anglican church loses out when it comes to good comedy ) when he questions Dougal's belief in the nitty gritty of Catholicism "So, Dougal, how did you become a priest. Was it free with 10 packets of crisps or something?"

I'm an atheist and find it all terribly confusing Math Being an atheist is much simpler. You can decide that homosexuality is a perfectly normal, natural way to live a life, get married if you want to, and just leave it at that, really.

Wamster - It is easy to be an atheist as there are no challenges within an absence of belief. No-one is telling you to get a religion so don't be so arrogant to criticize other people's beliefs. I'm not entirely sure what "cognitive dissonance" is but I think I get the drift.
Of course an individual can choose what it agrees with and what it doesn't. I disagree with many teachings of the Catholic church but I still describe myself as Catholic. The challenge is questioning what you are taught. In my opinion, the good things about the Catholic faith outweigh the bad and that is why I consider myself to be a Catholic. Are you suggesting that people should blindly follow their religion without question? That would be moronic, pointless and meaningless.

No challenges within an absence of belief? Yes, there are!!

And yes, I AM suggesting that if people follow a particular religion they should accept its basic beliefs without question else there is no point following that particular religion and its teachings. And heterosexual marriage is a major belief of Catholicism. It's not about the colour of the church pews or anything petty like that!

What on earth is the point of following a religion if you don't even agree with the fundamental views it holds?
But what have we had from the 'Catholics' here? Contraception is OK, masturbation is OK, gay marriage is OK. It's farcical. Truly farcical.

If you question the basics of Catholicism, then catholicism is not for you.

What are the challenges then, wamster?

wamster I think I've changed my mind about you . And how did this become a thread about religion . I thought it was about gay marriage ?

Migsy1, I think you'll find there are still alot of Catholics who believe their religion as it is laid out for them to believe & they don't cherry pick the bits that they find acceptable.

My parents believe that Catholicism is the one true faith and they believe that the teachings are from the word of God. They have signed up for the whole lot. My Mum nearly died after having my sister but had a massive crisis of faith about not having any more children, which she was advised would cause her death by the medical profession at the time. She not only went to the priest but also to the bishop to ensure that it would not be a sin for her to have her tubes cut. They are not stupid or simple people, they are both well educated and I would consider that my Mum is fiesty & very questioning. However, they believe that it is wrong to pick the bits you agree or disagree with, as that is not being properly Catholic. If you are Catholic then you uphold the Catholic faith and all that this entails. I don't think they are alone.

There are so many aspects I don't believe, that I wonder if I can be considered Catholic. I asked the question further up - how much can you disagree with before you cease to be a Catholic.

Well, the thread is about a Bishop's letter disagreeing with gay marriage so religion is the point of the thread.

Northey The challenges occur everyday when living in a country that allows religions to dictate policy. As is happening now, funnily enough, it's just that I happen to agree with the catholic church on this one. I usually disagree with them on everything. It's a nice change.

Northey I have thought about the nationality/religion argument too. I disagree with many UK policies etc but I am British and whatever I did I couldn't change that. I feel the same about my cultural Catholicism.

With regard to faith, well there are a billion Catholics, and Wamster I would be bloody surprised if that many people from all countries and backgrounds could be united on anything at all. I believe that Jesus Christ was the physical manifestation of God in the world, I believe in the truth of the gospels (New Testament- nowt to do with ten commandments). I believe in the great commandments of Jesus which are to love your God and love your neighbour as yourself. I do not believe in the church's teachings about homosexuality, sexuality in general, married and women priests and contraception. I don't think Jesus would agree with them. According to you that makes me not a Catholic. Am I permitted to call myself a Christian? Or do I have to find a church that I can get on board with in every minute area?

If you look at Judaism, there is huge variation, from the extremely orthodox groups to the reform Jews who want to conduct same sex unions. I am sure there is such variation within the Catholic church, just not officially.

Bugsy, I really think that question deserves a thread of its own - encompassing all faiths really. How much of your faith's teaching can you disagree with before you cant really co sider yourself a member of it any more.

@Wamster the problem is what you see as the 'basics' are just parts of catholocism as a whole.

PostBellumBugsy --

Here is a brief history of all the Councils of the Church, if you're interested in the nuts and bolts of how things get hammered out. The Councils of Nicaea established the Creed (the Nicaean Creed that is still recited at Mass) First Lateran Council, Fourth Council of Constantinople (7th Ecumenical Council) Fourth Lateran Council, the Council of Trent and Vatican I and II are of particular note, but all the councils are important.

How do you decide what is God's teaching & what is human-created dogma Grimma? Surely all of it is human-created dogma?

Well, as an atheist obviously I think its all human-created dogma. But when I was a christian - a nonconformist not a catholic - we weren't discouraged from asking such questions. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Judge not lest ye be judged. The 10 commandments. 'Jesus Christ, Son of God and Saviour'. Those sorts of things seem to stand the test of time. They're also pretty much ubiquitious across all christian denominations. Whereas something like, say, a strictly male priesthood... that may be viewed as patriarchal dogma (the Congregational church ordained a woman minister in 1917 - a year before votes for women).

The core christian beliefs are reasonably identifiable - the rest (whatever Wamster may think) has always been subject to change.

'Well, the thread is about a Bishop's letter disagreeing with gay marriage so religion is the point of the thread.'

I see the subject of the thread as the definition of 'marriage' by the Catholic church, and that is the issue politically and religiously too, with the position of the CoE thrown in to complicate matters.

A lot of posters have advocated leaving the term 'marriage' to churches that wish to use it, while using the term 'civil partnership' for all those couples who mark their union in a registry, straight or gay.

Thank you Math. Through my research today, I have found out more than I ever knew about firstly, what exactly the teachings are & secondly where they came from.

I wonder if all adult Catholics would not be well advised to have a run through of the current Catechism to see whether they do find themselves aligned with the Church or not. Not actually knowing properly is almost worse than blind faith!!!!

Interesting that CelticPromise dismisses the 10 commandments when they are in fact a fundamental part of Catholicism. Catholicism teaches that the commandments are essential for spiritual good health and growth, and that they form the basis for social justice. In the new testament, Jesus not only acknowledged their validity, but also instructed his disciples to live their lives by an even better moral code.

postbellumbugsy I see where you are coming from but I don't agree with you. If what you say is true do you think that Catholics like me should be excommunicated? I think you have a greater theological understanding of the Catholic faith than I have. The thing is that my objective in life is to live as Jesus advised us to as described in the gospels and I don't feel any need to understand all the doctrine. I prefer to live my life based on my on conscience in relation to Christ's teachings. That is enough for me. I have asked myself on many occasions whether I should attend a different church, but culturally, I am a Catholic. There is more to it for me than God.

math - I think you'd find that the idea of religions stealing the word 'marriage' from the general population was widely unpopular.

As a humanist, human relationships are the most important thing I have. I value the concept of 'marriage' as something which can - whether blessed by a religion or not - go way beyond a legal contract.

Who would decide which religions were pukka enough to bestow the title of 'married' on couples? Would you allow a humanist celebrant to marry a couple after the civil part? If not, why not?

Bollocks, I will question the basics of anything I like. Catholic or not.

The Catholic Mass is a thing of peace and beauty for me. I have never found such a sense of peace in any other church. Doesn't meanI have to agree with everything the Vatican says - that way lies madness. I think you'll find even priests don't agree with everything.

And if we HAVE to accept the basics of everything to be a part of it I will assume that YOU Wamster do not celebrate Christmas and you don't give Easter gifts. Or do you? If you do this while telling me that to be Catholic means I "have to accept ALL the basics" then that smacks of double standards.

I will believe what I want to believe but I will bloody well say "I DO not agree with this" when I feel the church are wrong. And there is nothing they can do to stop me.

If I wanted to be told what to think I'd join the JWs.

I'll tell you what bollocks is-not even taking the word of God's representative on earth (the Pope) seriously on the issue of gay marriage when you claim to be a catholic.

Codandchops, you go there for the Mass. Fair enough. But, really, to disagree with the Pope on gay marriage indicates a deep disregard for Catholicism itself.

If you're not going to listen to the Pope, why on earth be a catholic. My mil-bless her- left the church because she wholeheartedly disagreed with the catholic view on contraception. I can respect that.

I went on a retreat when I was 15 at Dion House run by Jesuits. There was a young priest there who told me that on some days he wants to tell God to F* off! Seriously. There is plenty of questioning of Catholicism by priests. The church would crumble if only "true" believers attended mass.

Christmas was a pagan festival along with easter before Christianity, Christianity just assimilated them.

Codandchops - Of course there is nothing they can do to stop you! LOL! Were you thinking the priest would conduct spot checks in bedrooms for contraceptive devices?

I still want to know how much you can disagree with and still be a member of that religion. I quite like sitting through mass too, especially if the priest has a nice tone of voice & an interesting sermon to deliver - but that doesn't make me Catholic.

You are not told what to think as a Catholic, you are told what your faith is. When you don't do what is part of that faith, which of course you have free choice to do, then you are sinning. It is fairly straightforward and easy to follow.