Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

Well, Bugsy, regardless of what party you vote for, the winning party develops and implements policies in your name. You could leave the country, but the reason you don't is that you identify very strongly as British and you hope things will change in time.

As for accepting everything as the word of God, that just isn't necessary - even the Church itself doesn't say every one of its teachings is the word of God and beyond challenge. I really don't see it as an all or nothing situation, and neither have plenty of Catholics through history who have thought and considered and challenged.

Hmmm, don't want to argue about democracy - but the winning party forms a Government based on their policies & they enact them in their name. I doubt very much that any Labour voter would say that the current coalition Government is implementing any policies in their name. It is completely different to religion.

I could be completely wrong, but I think that the Catholic Church would say that the 10 commandments are the word of God and are not really up for debate.

Anyhow, I am starting to sound pedantic and to be honest I don't really know what I think or believe! Not to mention the fact that I'm disturbed that Wamster keeps agreeing with me.

Actually, Jenny, I see them as very similar. I was basically born into my faith (to practising parents who had me formally baptised into it) in the same way I was born into my country (to citizen parents who registered my birth). And I have the same sort of strength of tie to both.

Bugsy, but when the government takes the country to war, it isn't only taking conservative/lib dem party members, or those who voted for either party. It's taking the whole country. It really does do it in your name. That's how it works.

Bugger, we really are derailing now. And don't worry, I don't think you and wamster think the same way :)

Of course I agree with you, PostBellumBugsy, you're talking sense. You're just being more polite about it, that's all.

The bottom line is that catholicism sees homosexuality as being a disorder and that gay marriages will not be allowed within its churches. Why this is hard to take for catholics, I don't know. Even as an atheist, I accept the rights of the catholic church to think homosexuality as being a disorder-even though I totally disagree with that view. Why can't those who are demanding that catholic churches conduct gay marriage be more understanding of catholic faith?

Outraged! It is bad enough being a Catholic without this kind of bigoted stuff being on the news. I have no problem with the church not conducting gay weddings but to try to stop the rest of the nation is downright arrogant and prejudiced. The church should stick to its own rules in on its own territory. If anybody does not like those rules, they can choose not to be part of the catholic church. However, for the church to describe gay civil marriage the way it has done is, in my mind, homophobic and unacceptable.

"Why can't those who are demanding that catholic churches conduct gay marriage be more understanding of catholic faith?"

Because no-one is demanding that.

But homophobia is inherent in Catholicism. Every single piece of catholic text I have read describes it as a disorder and is only acceptable if homosexuals are celibate.
I'm not being awkward for the sake of it here, it genuinely does baffle me why those who claim to be catholic cannot see this. Homophobia is a fundamental part of catholicism. At best, it is tolerated as long as catholics do not form relationships. And that sure as eggs excludes marriage!

But Migsy1, the Catholic Church believes that homosexual acts are sins - therefore how can the Church possibly accept that homosexuals should be allowed to get married?

This is very much the Church's territory!

It is entirely reasonable for the Church to ask its believers to actively oppose the change to the legal definition of marriage. The change in the legal definition undermines what the Church believes about marriage. If Catholics believe the teachings of their Church, then they should feel exactly the same way.

Wamster your language is inflammatory. Even though I disagree with the Church, it is not homophobic. It accepts homosexuals, but it does not accept homosexual acts, in the same way that it does not accept masturbation or the use of birth control. Generally speaking the Church does not condemn the person, it condemns the deed or the act.

Sorry, PostBellumBugsy, but all of my gay friends regard Catholicism as being homophobic. Doesn't accept homosexual acts. In their view-and mine- that is homophobia. Yes, we accept you but as long as you don't ever have sex. or form a loving relationship.

I think it's ironic, all this fuss about gay marriage when the Catholic church is camp as knickers.

Oh I know! All those lacy undervestments, and incense! :)

It doesn't really matter what your friends think Wamster. To be homophobic is to be anti-gays. The Church is against any sexual activity that does not take place within marriage, regardless of whether you are heterosexual or homosexual. This is why the change to the law is of such significance to the Church!!!!!!!!!

PostBellumBugsy Yes, it is reasonable for the church to ask its believers to oppose something that it does not believe in. However, in my opinion, the church has gone way too far this time and I am sure that I cannot be the only person alienated by the church on this.

I believe many things but I do not always think it is my place to impose my beliefs on others. Catholics wouldn't want to live by Muslim or Jewish rules so why does the church think that non-catholics should live by their rules?
The church doesn't try to ban everything it does not believe in, (e.g. contraception) does it? Why ban this?

Surely, the catholic church knows that there are a lot of gay people whose life has been made a misery by prejudice? Why increase their pain by being so overt in their condemnation? How about forgiveness and understanding. Would Jesus behave in this way? I don't think so.

"It accepts homosexuals, but it does not accept homosexual acts, in the same way that it does not accept masturbation or the use of birth control."

Yes, because no Catholics ever masturbate or use birth control...

Every sperm is sacred folks!

All the Catholics I know use contraception, have sex outside marriage and are not homophobic- isn't it time the Catholic church caught up with views of its members?

I am so encouraged to read that most people on here who are practicing Catholics are tolerant when it comes to this issue. I don't think churches will ever be forced to carry out same sex marriages but if we believe in all human beings being equal then of course people should be entitled to marry. Indeed they DO marry at the moment....they are just not allowed to call it that....which seems a little farcical really.

It would be interesting to start a new thread asking Catholics to list the activities or beliefs which they support/indulge in which are technically against church teaching. I know I have plenty

Actually, not at all - I'm not remotely ashamed of masturbating, non-marital sex or supporting gay marriage rights.

All the catholic church is doing is outlining their position on the issue. Absolutely fair enough. What do people expect the catholic church to do? Come out and say that they are fine with non- celibate homosexuality, that gays can have sex and marry?

Of course their stance is going to be anti gay marriage. I'd expect nothing else from them.

Oh deep sigh!

The Church does actively speak out against contraception. In 2009, the Pope stirred up a huge controversy when he said condoms were not the answer to Aids & poverty in Africa. The Church also rejects all forms of artificial insemination and fertilization because the techniques divorce the sexual act from the creation of a child.

As a Catholic you should be believing in the one God & one holy Catholic and Apostolic church, so of course you wouldn't want to live by any one else's rules. As a Catholic you should believe that your faith is right and that is the creed you live by!

So, we can cherry pick all we like - but surely there shouldn't be surprise when the Church actually asks us to stand by the beliefs that we maybe unwittingly have signed up to.

I'm surprised by the level of surprise on this one. That all sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong is such a strongly held belief of the Church - of course there is going to be huge objection to marriage for homosexuals, which thereby formally legalises forbidden sexual activity because for Catholics "sexual activity belongs only in marriage as an expression of total self-giving and union, and always open to the possibility of new life."

Your cognitive dissonance is really amazing, Northey. Your ability to believe in a faith (Catholicism) when that faith clearly thinks homosexuality is only acceptable if homosexuals are celibate yet you yourself believe in gay marriage is truly an epic case of cognitive dissonance. That and the contraception and masturbation (none of which I as an atheist am against at all), I wonder why you're even a catholic if you disagree with its teaching that much.

It's truly staggering.

LittleAlbert, that is not how it works at all. It's the Catholic Church, not the WI. It really is the Church's prerogative to hold beliefs, to promulgate doctrine, etc., and at the same time it acknowledges, as ImproperlyAcquainted said in an earlier post, that each individual is endowed with a conscience, and free will.

Wamster, the RC Church thinks the same thing of heterosexual sex outside marriage. Does that make it heterophobic?

I have explained several times how I can consider this position coherent. You sound really quite upset by your own view that it is incoherent. Can't you just shrug an move on?