Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

Wamster, what on earth is the matter? Why are you so upset about Catholics thinking independently about some of the church's views?

Yes Christmas was indeed a pagan festival - the midwinter solstice here and helped people accept Christianity. Christianity did not really come to the UK until after the Romans had done their stuff. There is a very old chapel locally built by one of these early Christians from the remains of a Roman fort.

Christianity just assimilated them.
and now some people want it to totally assimilate marriage. Same old, same old

Yes, masses are great. Been to a few myself. I must say that they are very soothing and calming, doesn't make me a catholic, though, because I, er, let me see now:

Believe in contraception
Believe in homosexuals being able to have sexual relationships
Believe that marriage is man-made and a social institution not a religious one
Believe that sex before marriage is OK
Have no respect for the Pope

What is the difference between a Civil Partnership and Marriage? To be honest, I don't know.

Christianity has always wanted to impose beliefs on others let them have their opinions just don't let them win lol

From the Civil Partnership info website, here are the differences:

Differences between Civil Partnerships and Civil Marriages

Although a civil partnership is essentially viewed as a ?gay marriage?, between same sex partners, the reason it is not called a ?gay marriage?, is that there are a few differences between a partnership and a marriage on a technical level.

A civil partnership becomes legal when the registration certificate is signed by both partners. This does not mean that it must be signed during a ceremony that is public or during any specific event. This allows the partner to enter into the partnership on a private basis. There need be no words exchanged. During a civil marriage, typically words are exchanged and then the register is signed.

A vast difference between a civil partnership and a civil marriage is that a civil marriage almost always contains religious aspects during the marriage. The word marriage is a religious word in itself. Additionally, a clergy can perform civil marriages, whereas only specified registrars can perform a civil partnership.

There are also vast similarities between the two. In both a civil partnership and a civil marriage, the couples are required to give public notice of the intentions. The records of both are kept as official and public documents with the registry offices. Couples are required to wait a total of 15 days prior to registration but after giving notice of the partnership. After the 15 day waiting period the registration is given, and then it is valid for one full year after the date of registration.

By not allowing gay marriage the church is implying these relationships are somehow lesser than heterosexual relationships. As homosexuality is a natural, normal universal human behaviour , this is a touch unfair, non?

I believe in all those things too Wamster and yet I still want to be Catholic - go figure because I don't truly understand it either.

I see the Mass and the beliefs of the hard core as separate.

I do think about the various things - sometimes I can see a basis in them and other times I just think "oh purleeese" and thankfully the local Nuns are not backward in saying "this is a load of rubbish and times have changed".

Like I said on another thread - what Jesus did and said was written up by man who is flawed. The Bible is full of stuff showing that Jesus often did not agree with the prevailing attitudes at the time and certain he was condemned for this on many occasions. Marriage is a social construct over hundreds of years, we have no way of knowing what Jesus would have said but I guess he would celebrate love as it was his greatest commandment.

I do think that he might struggle with knowing Christians who profess his faith but not his actions. I think the church is wrong and have said so here and elsewhere.

Both our priests thought the letter dreadful.

A vast difference between a civil partnership and a civil marriage is that a civil marriage almost always contains religious aspects during the marriage
That's not right - a civil marriage in a registry isn't allowed any religious aspects.

The word marriage is a religious word in itself.
No, it's not. Here's the etymology:
'The modern English word "marriage" derives from Middle English mariage, which first appears in 1250?1300 C.E. This in turn is derived from Old French marier (to marry) and ultimately Latin marītāre meaning to provide with a husband or wife and marītāri meaning to get married'.

Right have a headache now and only read through this thread on occasions

Off to do stuff.

Grimma, go tell the Civil Partnership info people! It is information from their website.
Codandchops, the records of Jesus's actions come from the Gospels, which is where a great deal of the Church's teachings come from. Surely, the Church has tried to use Jesus's teachings as the basis for the Catholic faith. Am I missing something fundamental here? Jesus always seems pretty hardcore to me.

No matter what is on this thread, people are going to display cognitive dissonance regarding catholicism and gay marriage, but the reasons I happen to agree with the catholic church on this one is because civil partnerships provide same rights as marriage (OK, so a few little details are different but so what?) so to waste time further is pointless.
It's not as if religions are queuing up to marry gay people. So why bother?

Why bother changing the meaning of something i.e. marriage -which is exclusively between man and a woman and really is designed for the bringing up of children (even if that is not always what happens) when for the most part people are happy enough why the decent compromise of civil partnerships?

It's just so irritating this fighting for a right that is totally unneccessary.

Thanks PostBellumBugsy It seems to me that there is no fundamental difference then. The outcome is the same. A legal contract of union.

It's just so irritating this fighting for a right that is totally unneccessary. I almost agree with you on that one.

AFAIK Christmas wasn't actually a pagan holiday I was just moved to coincide with a pagan holiday to stop Christians being persecuted . But I'm pretty sure the tv is my source on that one

Almost as irritating as religious groups pitching in as if they 'own' marriage

By not allowing gay marriage the church is implying these relationships are somehow lesser than heterosexual relationships. As homosexuality is a natural, normal universal human behaviour , this is a touch unfair, non?

Sorry, I don't mean to make you angry. Actually, I don't fully agree, but you must admit that the outcome seems to be the same whether "marriage" or CP.
I don't fully agree because although CP seems to bestow the same legal rights as marriage, it is slightly different and therefore discriminatory. The principle of the difference is the fundamental question, no matter how small the difference.

I know Christmas isn't pagan that's what I meant. The festival of Yule is pagan which falls on Dec 25th I knew what I meant lol

But it has nothing to do with fairness. The Catholic Church believes that homosexual acts are sinful. If homosexuals are allowed to get married it goes against the beliefs of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church doesn't just think a homosexual relationship is lesser to a heterosexual one - it thinks that a physical relationship between homosexuals is absolutely wrong!

Given that civil partnerships were designed to give same rights as marriage, I don't see how your rights are affected, either, Leningrad.
To prove this, it would be totally OK with me if my marriage in a register was called 'civil partnership' from now on, because, really, all marriage to me is a legal contract and I don't need any god or anybody else to 'bless' my relationship, ta very much.

I agree with wamster

But I can see at the same time why the Catholic church is defensive of their view of marriage, too. So far from being arrogant, I'm actually capable of seeing the side of an organisation that I wholly, as an atheist, disagree with.