Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

Wamster. What the laity think isn't irrelevant. The top of the church says all sorts of things, some of which are subsequently retracted or re-explained slightly differently, as a result of changing opinion within the laity (see my earlier post on sensus fidelium and limbo).

PostBellum, the laws o religion do change and evolve with the times, albeit very very slowly. I believe that the Catholic Church has much to offer in many ways but without its more progressive members speaking up and letting their voic be heard and giving others the courage and opportunity to do the same, it will never change. Without serious changes, the Catholic church as we know it Britain will not exist in the future and there will be lots of good things lost along the way. I don't blindly follow my faith, I am challenged by it and, at the moment, I am questioning it, I am allowed to do that. I don't blindly follow anything I am unhappy with, if I feel a civil matter is unjust, I will go my MP,
If I feel a religious matter is unjust I will speak out. It doesn't mean I am no longer a civilian or I am no longer a Catholic, it means I am human.

Marriage is determined by religion in my opinion not by government and government cannot intervene on these matters

Fortunately that is indeed just your opinion. The briefest study of our marriage laws show that they are determined by government. It is the churches who should not intervene in these matters (ie, trying to impose their beliefs on everyone else). The government cannot and should not and don't intervene with religious sacraments.

Law->government
Sacrament->religion

One or two parts to marriage, as you choose.
Oh..and 'Marriage is determined by religion' - even if we did accept that, which religion? The Quakers and the URC want to be able to perform marriage services for gay couples.

Yes I think words matter too - that's what I was trying to say really, that this issue really demonstrates just how much they do matter to many people!

Ok I hold my hands up, I read it wrong. Again, sorry If I offended anyone. I do have friends and a brother who is gay, love them to bits doesn't mean I agree with their lifestyles.

JustForMe: "Correct there is but two animals of the same gender cant reproduce so therefore the species would die out eventually if it was passed on leading to extinction. Natural selection does involve reproduction at some point."

But some species engage in asexual reproduction of hermaphroditic reproduction. Not sure whether the Church regards that as a good thing or a bad thing.

Wamster - the Church changes its mind all the time. The laity are often out of step with official church doctrine (such as contraception). I really can't see why you're getting so worked up about this, given that you're not a Catholic. Unless - gasp - you're trolling?

or, not of. Sorry

Mum2luke, you have a brother who is gay? Wow, does he realise your. Jews on his lifestyle?

but Livid who are we to question the teachings of God?

The Catholic Church is not about its members who cherry pick what they may or may not want to believe. It is a belief system - just because the beliefs are not popular or do not fit with a contemporary view of the world, does not make them wrong - if they are the word of God.

Why should the Church change? If it has doctrines that are clear, why should it matter that we disagree with them?

I'm being slightly devil's advocate here, as I was brought up to believe that you either believed or you didn't. Tough luck if you didn't, that meant you were a sinner & you would not go to heaven. By not believing the teachings of the Church & therefore God, you were setting yourself apart from God & believed that you knew better than him & therefore separated yourself from his grace.

Damn obviously meant *your views! Stupid phone!

who are we to question the teachings of God

Humans with brains and consciences? The adherents of any religion can surely question whether something is the teaching of God or mere human-created dogma.

How do you decide what is God's teaching & what is human-created dogma Grimma? Surely all of it is human-created dogma?

Bugs, some parts of the church's teaching do change, so it isn't unreasonable to think about which current teachings might change in the future. There is a sort of hierarchy of teachings, and some are more fixed than others (with those presented under the mantle of infallibility being the most fixed of all).

In answer to your second question, bugs (at 12.14.07), is it a cop out to say that you just do the best you can?

Many of those doctrines were set out by man not God. I was brought up believe God loves us all equally and that we should not judge others, only God can ultimately do that.

Agree Northey, but the changes tend to be tiny - partly because I think that the core beliefs of the Catholic Church are based on what is believed to be the word of God through the 10 commandments. They are not going to change - only man's interpretation of them can change.

It is at this point, that I metaphorically throw my hands up in the air & wonder if any of it makes any sense at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Brain aches.

However, given the current Catholic doctrine regarding homosexuality - there is no way that the Church is going to condone gay marriage - civil or otherwise.

Well yes, they do change, eventually, but these changes can take decades, centuries even and in the meantime ...
Also, not all change within the church results in liberalisation. The opposite can be true too.

Still feels odd to me to want to be part of a church with which so many Catholics disgaree on so many fundamental points. As I said before, these beliefs are not incidental: they hurt people, really hurt people and wishing they were not so puts no pressure on the church to change. Standing by and hoping for change or quietly disagreeing about contraception, views on homsexuality, women, IVF etc.... actually help the church to keep peddling ideas which would be offensive if not illegal outside a religious context.

If I recast it in terms of nationality, Jenny, does it still seem the same?

I disagree with elements of tax and benefit policy. I think they are inconsistent and misguided and really hurt people. These policies are developed and implemented in my name, as I am a member of this country. Should I not want to be a British citizen any more?

Northey, I hate to say it but that argument doesn't really work. If you disagree with a parties policies in a democracy, then you don't vote for them. You may not win that vote, but that is democracy. I guess that if you fundamentally disagree with the state of the Nation as a whole, then you are free to leave. No other country may want you - but that is a different problem.
With religion, I am not sure you have the same choices. You either have faith and agree that it is the word of God or you don't. If you cherry pick bits of your faith, are you not saying that the teaching of God is wrong. If God is omnipotent, then how can he get it wrong?

Don't get sniffy with me,Devora, I'm not the one who believes homosexuality is a disorder -it's catholicism that thinks that, NOT me. I'm fine with it, or, rather,I don't care either way.

There is evidence of an evolutionary advantage to our species producing people who are homosexual. It is thought that along with our altruistic gene - the one that predisposes us to helping in a group so as to ensure genes survive, there is a rationale for humans who do not reproduce but care for group enduring its survival.

I'd hate my relationship to be reduced to procreation - but then I am an unmarried mother and therefore going to burn in hell for eternity. I feel kinda relaxed about that

Exactly, PostBellumBugsy.

jenny60, I am starting to agree that I can't be Catholic and disagree with so much of what the Church stands for but it is a painful and, not altogether, straightforward process for me. I feel incredibly sad that that part of me and my identity is seemingly coming to end but I cannot reconcile myself with the fact that the heirarchy in my church have let themselves and my religion stand for bigotry and hatred.

Just wanted to apologise for saying "gays" as well. Lazy typing on my part.

Northy no, because comparing religious faith with citizenship doesn't work as one is based on actual choice, the other on birth/law. They are too different. I could go on but don't want to because I don't want to derail the thread. I'm not a practising Catholic anymore so what I say doesn't matter in the context of this thread and I'm sorry for having butted in. But I do understand, having struggled with it and defended it myself for years.

Ikea I'm sorry, I know how you feel. It's hard, isn't it? I sort of feel like I will always be culturally Catholic, if if not practising.