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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Graham, Gloria and Gossip! Religion Chat thread (part 4)

991 replies

nickelbabe · 06/08/2011 11:52

I know we've not officially finished the last one, but I wanted to get the link in before we ran out of room!

Everyone welcome - the aim of this thread is to generally chat about church life, or just gossip in general!
You don't have to be a regular church-goer, nor do you have to know what we're going on about!
It's not about debate, it's just about chatting
:)

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nickelbabe · 29/09/2011 13:53

lovely Grin

(don't tell anyone else that I love something happy clappy....)

exiting about the visit from your vicar! Grin
good luck with it!

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TotallyUnheardOf · 02/10/2011 11:23

OK... So, basically my conclusion is that I'm just a 'high' kind of a gal!

I have to say that the way that the Guides were included in the service was lovely - it didn't feel like a 'token gesture' that they'd been invited along at all, and that was great.

I won't list the things I didn't like, because I do know that it's just personal taste, of course; and, for instance, while I prefer a bit of the magic and mystery of more traditional language (I don't necessarily mean 1662 BCP, but just something a bit more formal I suppose) I can see how more everyday language will appeal to others. However, I do have to mention that the Sad face next to the confession and the Smile face next to the absolution on the service sheet did mark a particular low for me.

I've clearly infected dd2, too, because when they invited clapping she looked at me like this > Hmm and kept her hands resolutely by her sides!

[TUO wafts some incense about the place and says 'thou' a few times to recover] Wink Grin

thanksamillion · 02/10/2011 12:45

THO Grin

thanksamillion · 02/10/2011 12:46

Doh! That was meant to be TUO

TotallyUnheardOf · 02/10/2011 13:38

Grin I confused you with my 'thou's...

DD1 (I can't be bothered to get out of bed on a Sunday morning don't believe in God) pronounced that the service was nice and relaxed. Smile

DD2 said that it was 'too short'. Smile again!

thanksamillion · 02/10/2011 15:01

You should send DD2 here - we normally have 2 hours (plus a 1 hour evening do) and last week for Baptisms/Harvest it was nearer to 3! Would that be long enough? Grin

TotallyUnheardOf · 02/10/2011 18:10

Hmm, yes, I think that might be long enough even for dd2! Hope the seats aren't too uncomfy...

thanksamillion · 02/10/2011 19:26

I have small DCs so wander in and out as the need takes Grin

thejaffacakesareonme · 02/10/2011 21:58

Hello ladies

I've another question that keeps on buzzing around in my head and would welcome your thoughts on how you deal with the issue involved. It's driving me nuts and I can't stop thinking about it. I appreciate that everyone will have different perspectives, but isn't that part of what is good about a forum like this where people come from different backgrounds and churches?

The Church of Scotland is grappling with the issue of homosexual ministers and homosexuality in general. I thought I'd like to make up my own mind about it and looked up what the bible says on it. I was surprised at how few references there were. There were some though in Leviticus that seemed to be pretty explicitly against homosexuality. There were also verses in the next chapter or so which gave instructions as to how men are to trim their beards and said that the Israelites shouldn't wear clothes of mixed cloth which we obviously don't abide by. Now my question is this, when and how do we decide that verses in the bible were written for the society which existed at that time and are no longer relevant now? Also, when do we decide that they are absolute and we should abide by them? Although I've been looking at this in the context of homosexuality I thought the same principles may apply in considering for example the role of women in the church given some of Paul's teaching, or whether priests should marry. Different churches obviously decide that different things are absolute, but how?

Sorry about the esssay.

nickelbabe · 03/10/2011 10:18

I think there were very few references becuse it didn't exist in the public eye iyswim.
I still don't believe that a lot of the verses that "mention" homosexuality actually mean homosexuality at all.

I also believe that a lot of the verses that mention women preaching are verses that were relevant to the day - in the same way that they say that women are the property of the husband, that you can have so many slaves and that the master/servant relationship is immovable.

Even inside the bible's timeframe, the rules are changed a lot to the converts to christianity - Jesus said it was unnecessary to circumcize the baby boys, and he encouraged women to preach (well, he said spread the word, but it's the same thing) - in fact, I think a lot of the translations where it mentions "men", in the original Greek ,they use the word meaning "people", and it was only the confines of tradition or patriarchal prejuduce that made the translation become "men". (and how do we know when they mean "men" as in "male people" or "men" as in the archaic "people"?)

The items of clothing is also interesting - the rules concerning the cloths allowed for certain tiers of society existed in Law in the Middle ages in this country, and existed in Practice until comparatively recently (a working class person in finer cloth would be seen as having ideas above their station in the Victorian age)

Basically, the fundamental ideas and laws in the bible are true, accurate and correct, but most of the extemporization is down to the traditions and rules at the time.
Same as our laws and statutes change according to need, so did theirs.

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madhairday · 04/10/2011 12:21

I'll have a go at this one when I feel a bit less drugged up better

But what nickel said :)

nickelbabe · 04/10/2011 12:44

copy cat Grin

hope you feel better soon. :(

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MaryBS · 04/10/2011 20:17

I found this a really helpful book on the subject of Christianity and homosexuality, in that it gives an informed discussion, without either side being (too) judgemental. It certainly opened my eyes! It contains various contributors, including one Cardinal Ratzinger, but also some eminent people on the other side of the debate.

www.amazon.co.uk/Homosexuality-Church-Both-Sides-Debate/dp/0664255450/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317755647&sr=1-4

Nickel, I've emailed you some sermons :)

nickelbabe · 05/10/2011 10:40

Thanks Mary. :)
I do look forward to reading your sermons.

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madhairday · 05/10/2011 15:02

Jaffa;

when I hear Christians battling about homosexuality I get sad. I look at Jesus and what he stood for and what he had to say. While he had nothing to say about homosexuality he had plenty to say about the poor, the downtrodden, the marginalised, and how we as his followers should treat our fellow people. Sadly I have seen too much evidence of homosexual people being treated as second class or worse by the church, and cries of judgment upon them when people should be looking at their own lives and their own sins.

So my first stance is to look at how Jesus acted. He was accepting of everybody. Then there's the whole homosexuality in the bible thing. There was no real concept of committed gay relationships as we have today anywhere in the bible. When Paul takes a hard line on 'homosexual offenders' it looks like he is talking about the rape of young male slaves, in that case often very young boys. If he is taking a hard line against such practices then that can only be good. I wouldn't want a God who would not judge men for raping boys. But there is just not the construct of gay marriages. So we have to look at the overall bible, what God says about relationships in general and take it from there. We cannot, I believe, form a judgment on homosexuality from 'what the bible says', because really, it doesn't.

We can see that God intended men and women to come together in marriage. We can see that some people were called to be single. BUt again, there was never the issue. So I wonder whether we need to decide that we are not God, and it's actually not up to us to make a judgment on such things. Who knows? I suppose you could make that statement about a number of things.

For me, I have friends who are Christian and gay and reconcile it quite happily. I know they are sincere in their relationships with God. I am now much of the opinion that there are more important things for the church to be concerned with, like justice for the poor for example, and droughts in Somalia. Why are we quibbling? It's like the whole women priests thing. What a load of hot air.

I sometimes wonder if Jesus came again now he would look at his church with his head in his hands and go 'that's not what I meant..'

But that's somewhat harsh. There is so much good in the church. I just think we make a big issue of things that don't matter sometimes.

Gay priests is a difficult one for many I know. I just would look at that person and how sold out for God and the gospel they are, I think.

But then again I'll never make archbishop. Tho dh might Grin

nickelbabe · 05/10/2011 15:10

oooh, mhd - very well put.

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thejaffacakesareonme · 05/10/2011 17:00

Grrr. I just typed a huge long post but I dithered about it for so long that Mumsnet logged me out and I lost it all. I'll try and type what I can remember.

I'm quite sure the CofS would rather not have had to deal with the whole issue of gay clergy and marriages but there have been a couple of things that have happened that have made it difficult to avoid. Firstly, there is a minister (I think that would be our equivalent of a vicar) announced he is living with his partner. Secondly, the Scottish Government is considering the issue of gay marriages. There has been a lot of upset caused with some people saying they will leave the church if a decision is made in favour of gay clergy and others saying they will leave if a decision is made against it. At grass roots level there are a lot of people like me that don't know what to make of it all. It seemed a natural step to see what the bible said about it.

I don't want to be judgemental. At the back of my mind I remember a lad I met at a party a few years ago. He'd had a conservative catholic upbringing and was now in a relationship with his gay partner. He felt he'd been abandoned by his church and by God because of his sexuality. As he felt he'd been abandoned by God he wouldn't look at another church. His pain was obvious and I felt so sorry for him. I'd hate for my kids to go through that pain. I've never met him again but I hope he's realised that God hasn't abandoned him and has made his peace with Him.

Thanks very much for the responses. It is great to get a more informed view on it all, especially when the bible passages that people refer to were written in another time and for a different culture.

madhairday · 06/10/2011 11:25

So sad about that lad Jaffa. I hope he's found that God hasn't abandoned him too.

Feeling a little better but it's taking a while this time.

thejaffacakesareonme · 06/10/2011 12:49

When I thought about it last night I realised I have met him again at other social functions. There've never been any discussions about religion but as far as I remember he seemed happy and outgoing.

nickelbabe · 06/10/2011 12:58

So, on at least some level, he's happy.
I think that's the most important thing.
as long as he doesn't still think god abandoned him :(

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madhairday · 07/10/2011 10:42

Morning all :)

slightly better today...getting there. How are you all?

nickelbabe · 07/10/2011 11:19

morning :)

I'll be the one moaning today.
It's been a bad week.
exacerbated by DH being away. :(
Everything seems to be a lot easier to cope with when he's here.
the till isn't ringing (Wednesday was a very busy day, but put against Monday, tuesday andThursday, it might as well not have existed), and I'm seriously considering closing the shop when the lease ends (it's 2 years from now, so there's still a chance it'll pick up, but it's looking bleak)
(in the time since I started typing this, I've just sold 3 local books, so....)

anyway, I'm sure I'm just being a misery because I miss DH, and it'll all be fine when he gets back. (tomorrow afternoon!! )

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DutchOma · 07/10/2011 11:33

Where has he been?

nickelbabe · 07/10/2011 12:23

Norfolk on a Boys' fishing holiday.

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MaryBS · 07/10/2011 14:25

DD is 12 today. She and DS got up at 5:30. By 6:30 she was dancing to Matt Redman's Dancing Generation on her new ipod. I need a sleeeeeeeeep!

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