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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

If you are an atheist...

500 replies

Pruni · 17/11/2005 23:07

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frogs · 19/11/2005 13:50

Yes, I'm afraid these people do nothing for Christianity's PR...

Pruni · 19/11/2005 13:51

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aloha · 19/11/2005 14:08

The bible is extremely explicit stuff. It is clear that the only way to heaven is by worshipping God through Jesus. There is no other way. If you think otherwise that is in direct contradition to the bible.
It seems to me that people make up their religion according to what they would like to be true, which to me is loopy (well, I think all religion is loopy tbh, but this is extra loopy).
I would like to win the lottery next week. Wishing, I've discovered, does not make it so.
As for God not being vengeful...well, on what basis do you make that statement? The Christian God of the Bible is fantastically vengeful and cruel. He demanded that Abraham cut the throat f their own child to prove his devotion (yes, he let him off at the last minute but I don't suppose Isaac ever trusted his father in quite the same way ever again, eh?) and was capable of acts of mass murder when angry because he wasn't being worshipped sufficiently.
In a way I can understand people believing in and fearing God more easily that I can understand people worshipping God - he (like mostGods throughout human history) is a vile character - angry, intolerant, murderous. If you reject the Biblical God, who are you worshipping?

aloha · 19/11/2005 14:15

Also the Bible DOES say that we are all born sinners - including babies.
Of course that is an unpleasant idea! The Bible is packed with them.

That's not why I don't believe btw. I don't believe because I don't believe.

ruty · 19/11/2005 14:17

oh dear pruni - i lost a very good friend to evangelicalism - she wasn't as bad as the woman you describe but she went from being a 'moderate' christian with a great sense of humour to the kind of 'invasion of the body snatchers' glazed-look-in her-eyes kind of person. great shame.

ruty · 19/11/2005 14:27

aloha forgive me but your understanding of the bible is very unintellectual and over simplistic and also flawed. i am breastfeeding babe at moment so can't respond as i'd like but there are many threads here discussing the myriad of metaphor and poetry in the bible. very briefly, Christ came to totally revolutionize the Old Testament and to unify everything under the Law of Love. This is not a wishy washy statement, it is an immensely challenging law with implications socially, politically and individually, as he proved thru rhe course of his life. Each book\of the new testament has a different voice and each have their own agenda - you seem mostly to refer to Paul [a rather evangelical convert who used to kill christians]. There are many books you could`read about Christ and the theological interpretations of the bible. It is NOT about people choosing what they want to believe, and it is rather silly and ill informed to suggest it is.At my son's christening we used a passage from the Beatitudes that had been retranslated from the Aramaic into English, avoiding the Greek translation on the way, and the words were so different and so powerful, i wish everyone knew the bible this way. There is no Male God, and so much of the language is different. Please do not tell Christians what they believe and then say you don't believe it anyway, it is annoying!

aloha · 19/11/2005 14:31

No, in fact I wasn't referring to Paul at all.
I challenge you to find me one bit of the Bible where it states that unbelievers will go to heaven. Or, indeed, that babies are not sinners from the womb.
And do you deny that God is a mass murderer?

ruty · 19/11/2005 14:31

soory aloha, i probably put myself too strongly across - i didn;t mean to be offensive to you - this discussion has been remarkably well mannered up to now and i didn;t mean to lower the tone. Forgive me!

ruty · 19/11/2005 14:33

just saw you last post. Er sorry, yes i do deny Gd is a mass murderer! I think your idea of God is so awful that it seems a bit more than just 'not believing'. Where have you got all these ideas from? and which passage of the bible are you claiming states that babies are sinners from the womb?

aloha · 19/11/2005 14:34

No one comes to the Father except through me? (John 14:6).

frogs · 19/11/2005 14:35

But the idea of original sin is essentially a way of explaining what Pruni was talking about earlier -- the tendency of the best human ventures to go belly up because, in the end, we all fall short of the best that we could be.

The essence of Christianity is that, although we are all less than we might be (because of human weakness, sin, call it what you wish), we are nonetheless forgiven and accepted. That forgiveness is offered to us; we are not forced to take it. But if we choose to reject it, we are turning our backs on the chance to be the person we are called to become.

Coming back to CS Lewis, I like the scene in the Last Battle where the renegade Dwarfs are all sitting around in what they believe is a stinking stable surrounded by filth and dirt. However many times the others describe the beautiful fields and surroundings, the Dwarfs have so blinded themselves to what is good, that they have rendered themselves unable to respond to it.

As regards followers of other faiths being damned, I was told in no uncertain terms when I raised just this question in first communion classes: 'We know where god is; it is not for us to judge where he is not'.

SenoraPostrophe · 19/11/2005 14:36

those things are arguably implied in the story of the good smaritan and the bit where Jesus says "give me the child until he is seven...", Aloha.

But in general, I agree. a lot of the stuff in the bible is horrific and very much pushes me towards the belief that man invented god and jan said hundreds of posts ago.

aloha · 19/11/2005 14:36

"Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens" Genesis 19:24. "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly" II Peter 2:6. (The word for "example" means an exhibit for warning.)

aloha · 19/11/2005 14:47

3 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh?s servants, and in the sight of the people.

4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:

5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

Pruni · 19/11/2005 14:47

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ruty · 19/11/2005 14:47

got to go, babe crying. Will come back to answer your assertions`later Aloha. Teh writer of John's gospel had his own agenda which i will explain later. Christ did not say this. it is not even certain that John wrote this - this gospel was written about 100AD. As I said, Christ came to revolutionize the Old Testament under the Law of Love. Sodom and gomorrah was a natural disaster that people at the time interpreted to be an act of God, as they did in those days. there are some which see something like the tsunami as an Act of God, too, which is equally not true. christ came to set the record straight. It seems to me you pick the bits of the bible which support your decision to be an athiest!

ruty · 19/11/2005 14:49

Cor, aloha, you are an Old Testament addict! Christ came to put the record straight, ok? If you want to start quoting have a look at Christ's teachings!

jinglybits · 19/11/2005 14:52

can't read all this but if you ever get asked 'religion?' i.e when registering at doctors they don't approve of you saying none...my brother says 'jedi' but then he is a loon

SenoraPostrophe · 19/11/2005 14:52

But surely all of the gospel writers would have had an agenda, Ruty? they were human after all.

I do believe in Christ, actually, but think he was using the established beliefs of the day as a basis on which to build his teachings.

frogs · 19/11/2005 14:54

Aloha, you need to take a blood pressure pill and have a read of the New Testament. Your understanding of Christianity seems to be based on the teachings of some particularly fundamentalist Victorian sect.

I'm starting to see why you despise all religious faith. Religion according to aloha seems to go: You either believe according to my (highly selective) interpretation of the faith, in which case you are clearly a mad, hell-fire-and-damnation bigot, or you have a more mainstream interpretation of Chrisitanity in which case you are a self-deluding hypocrite. I believe that's what the psychiatrists call a double-bind.

And Pruni, no more CS Lewis, I promise! Although I do think his children's novels contain better theology than his actual theology, iyswim.

aloha · 19/11/2005 14:58

Hey, I'm just quoting the Bible! I didn't even add any interpretation! It's YOUR book not mine! If you don't like it, that's hardly my fault.

aloha · 19/11/2005 15:00

Makes me laugh! It's supposed to be the word of God. People base their whole lives on this stuff.
And I don't think I decided to be an atheist. You choose to believe in God.

aloha · 19/11/2005 15:01

And as I said, I am appalled by religion, but that isn't why I am an atheist. That would imply that you are born believing, which you aren't.

ruty · 19/11/2005 15:03

you are angry aloha i think. Sorry.

aloha · 19/11/2005 15:04

So am I quoting incorrectly?