If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

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Actually, Libby Purves has an interesting chapter on CS Lewis in her book as well. It really is a good read for those interested in thinking about religion rather than believing it. And she ends up rejecting her (catholic) faith, for all you atheists who like a happy ending.

Here is a webpage about Lewis and atheism. It may be a bit biased, as it's from the "about" section on atheism.

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nor me, tho suspect for opposite reasons to pruni...

I think you can only see atheism as a denial if you are starting from a position of faith. And that's really the problem isn't it? As an atheist I have no faith (which is why I am an atheist) I do not feel the need for faith, and think it is either something you have, or you don't. I enjoy having intellectual conversations about religion, and find religion (from a historical, political and cultural study point of view) fascinating. But that's it. I can't really have a conversation about belief with someone of religious conviction, because we have no common ground. I was brought up a Catholic, and would describe myself as culturally Catholic/Christian, because I am very aware that my moral system is deeply embedded in Christian traditions. I have a good knowledge of different faiths (although most in depth for Christianity, I also studied Islam at university). My big sister is a vicar, and I am always aware of that line we can't cross in conversations because of my atheism (I am sure she thinks I will be "re-saved" at some point).

On Narnia, I'm not sure. Loved it as a child, and read all of the books many times. Found the Last Battle disturbing once I started studying other religions, because their seemed to be the assumption that followers of Tash (and I kind of thought this just might be Islam) would go to heaven if they were really good, and this seemed to me to say not that Aslan was a universal God, but that he was the only god (just happy to acquire "good" people who had been a bit deluded).

I reread The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe fairly recently, and was shocked at how sexist it was, and thought that I would be deeply uncomfortable reading it to my children. I will be interesting to see how the film is reviewed, as ds is interested in seeing it (although this is because he liked the battle scenes in the trailer, and thought it was an adventure film)

haven't read whole thread... but i'm with aloha. deeply dislike and distrust religion for bringing so much needless pain, suffering, guilt and war into the world - what a pointless exercise. imo it is rarely about god and usually about humans trying to control each other.

and agree about the neediness. as an atheist i say i don't need god(s), i can have morals and happiness and love without that. and at least my morals are consistent and make sense - because they are about respect, doing as you would be done by and aiming to avoid making other people suffer, whereas many religious "morals" are totally arbitrary like don't eat prawns, don't have sex before marriage and you must have your genitals sliced up.

deeply suspicious imo! i mean why isn't there a religion about being happy and enjoying food, sex, nature, all that our wonderful world has to offer and that (allegedly) god has created? no no, it's all about restriction, control and guilt. horrible.

havoing said that i do try to respect individual people's religious feelings and would never try to persuade them otherwise. and i do know some nice, non-bigoted religious people - not as many as there should be, mind.

What is remotely arrogant about enjoying your life as much as you can and finding beauty in it? I'm genuinely astonished as to how that could be perceived as 'arrogant'. Do please explain. I am going over the definition of 'arrogant' in my head, and nope, see no connection.

I agree that the so-called religious wars are rarely about God and more about humans trying to control each other - religion is merely an excuse. If there was no religion we would still be persecuting each other and waging war surely in something elses name.

I guess it might be seen as arrogant that an aethist would chose to say "I a human chose not to believe in God" to a religious person who fundametally believes in an all powerful and all present God. It kind of sets up a bit of a conflict. But personally as I don't believe in God, it's more of a well I think one thing and you think another sort of thing, so I think that it's a case of two view points that don't sit together very well.

The idea that my atheism starts from a position of denial is just a very arrogant faith-based position - typical CS Lewis.

I don't deny religion, like others have posted, it's fascinating, but "denial" is a strong word. Do we all sit here "denying" Santa Claus, or denying the existence of fairies at the bottom of the garden? Of course not, we don't need to, we take it for granted that it's so obvious there's no such thing, that we don't need to deny it.

And I loved the Narnia books as well, but there's no doubt that the Tash thing is an subconsciously islamaphobic portrayal of a Muslim god. That's certainly how I read it when I was about eight. Growing up catholic, you couldn't escape the allegory and it was clear that Aslan was the loving, accepting Jesus and Tash was a terrible Old Testament type (sacrifices anyone?) Islamic type (because weren't they all dressed in Arab type clothing?) portrayal of God.

very interesting thread, only just seen it. I'm glad to see frogs and marina representing a more intelligent christianity. archbishop Michael Ramsay used to call himself a 'Christian Agnostic'and this has helped me with my Faith. My father, a priest, also says he has had long periods of great doubt in his faith, but he has come to the conclusion, that even if there is no God, following Christ's teachings is the best way to live. People who call themselves humanists often don't believe anything very different to Christ's core teachings, they just take God out of the equation and choose to ignore that Christ may have influenced their beliefs. I have had athiest periods in my life. It find it interesting that many hardcore athiests [not all]have had Christian upbringings or teaching and have had bad experiences, and that those experiences have provoked a rather emotional and reactive, almost vengeful kind of athiesm, a way at getting back at the damage done to them. when i have felt angry at 'God' i have often decided i am not going to believe he exists. I now call myself a christian agnostic. It is strange, this idea that only a belief in god is an act of Faith. I think athiesm too is an act of Faith. Only agnosticism is not - then you keep an open mind either way. people used to think that the earth was flat - because there was no evidence to support anything else. Science and God are totally compatible and inextricably linked in my opinion. The one reveals the other. And as a footnote, Christ never taught that homosexuality was wrong. Not on topic, but just wanted to make that clear! Sorry for ramble.

BTW what really angers me is world leaders that call themselves Christians and then go and do things that couldn't be more opposed to Christ's teachings like going to war in Iraq.

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fascinating thread...
i agree that my atheism is an act of faith - it is a statement of belief, reached after very careful consideration of the issues - but it is not a denial.
interesting point ruty about some atheists being "vengefulafter some negative experiences. my father was one of that category - a secrarian childhood and some pretty grim experiences at the hands of Catholic monks.
mine comes from a different place. i had a rather warm and fuzzy protestant Jesus loves me and wants me for a sunbeam religious upbringing, and to tell the truth I still miss some of it - the ritual, the tradition and so on. I am not so a-theist that I do not recognise that religions speak to and answer a deep psychological need in human beings. But recognising that does not mean I can choose to believe, and nor does it mean necessarily that any or all religions do not have some truth in them. It is perfectly possible that Christianity, say, has some truth at the centre of it as well as being in many ways a human construct to meet a real human need.
But, having recognised the need, I still don't believe it. And it's a one way street and there is no way back for me at least.

HC - that's exactly what lewis is getting at, as i read it. it's an idea that atheism (you could say the same, for eg, about nihilism) is as structured as religious faith. i wonder how many people actually realise or would be prepared to accept this? (you erudite MNers aside ) if you accept that atheism is, in a sense an act of faith (caligula & others...), then it's subject to exactly the sort of insecurities that lewis suggests. i guess it comes down to how devout an atheist you really are.
aloha, what i resist about your ideas about 'making life beautiful' is the way in which they make 'pleasure' (specifically aesthetic pleasure) aspirational, in a world characterised by cruelty, exploitation, persecution, greed etc.
the big ideas are sublime, intensely pleasurable - but inescapably meaningless, to me at least (& this comes from someone hoping to make a career out of studying literature btw.) i sound totally ascetic, but i'm not quite sure that you can justify pleasure on any grounds, neither religious nor moral (i'm sure NQC will correct me on this, it's personal conjecture that i would rarely share, only this thread has touched a nerve for me).
religion the opiate of the masses? you could say the same for art, in many ways, IMO. these are slightly unformed ramblings, but you prob get the point.
(must look up my copy of winterson's 'art objects'...along with my cs lewis )

rats, forgot to address the notionof arrogance - it's about the (human) self-importance of suggesting that pleasure is all (& that that's ok). again, slightly rambling, brain on go-slow sadly these days! perhaps not quite the right word to choose inthe first place...

hmm, keep running over this in my mind...

perhaps irresponsible is a better word (help, NQC!)? or selfish? (tho that's a little more 'loaded' certainly)
i honestly do feel this, sadly. it's not about religion or atheism tho, more about social conscience, or justice. i think it's v. real.

Who said pleasure is all? (though actually I thing the denial of the joy of pleasure is one thing that I really does piss me off about religion)How do you make your life beautiful? I do so by finding love in my family, loving my children and raising them to the best of my ability. Appreciating the sheer luck of being alive and doing my best to make the most of each day.
I totally and utterly fail to see anything arrogant in that.
Believing that a big invisible friend is going to save you and damn all the unbelievers to hell, on the other hand....

I certainly think a more just world is a more beautiful world. Unlike the bloodthirsty monsters on the religious right or in power over most of the middle east.Absolutely baffled now.

Speaking for myself, here, aloha, I certainly don't believe that all non-believers are 'damned to hell'. I think some of the assumptions you make about what religious people believe bear little relation to reality.

I also have an issue with the way you seem to hold religion responsible for everything bad that has ever been carried out in the name of faith, but conveniently ignore the many positive things that are done in the name of faith. I'm not saying you can't do good things outside religion, but rather that your view of faith is a very selective and unfair one. I object to Tony Blair's policy on Iraq, but I don't hold liberal democracy as an institution responsible for the war.

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For me it is precisely because of the things I find so unspeakably beautiful that make me believe in God, in spite of my doubts. Faith is not about denying pleasure or joy in life, and i don't want to answer for roosmum, but i think she was saying it shouldn't be the be all and end all, that individual pleasure shouldn't be the ultimate aim in life, as it often is now in capitalism. I'm not saying you were saying that tho aloha.

and of couse non believers ate not damned to hell! If hell or heaven even exist, they are more to do with having to live with the choices we have made in this world towards our fellow human beings i think. God is not so petty and vengeful that She/He is going to say 'Aha, you didn't believe in me - so you're going to suffer now forever!' Her/His love is unconditional and Absolute.

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