If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

Message withdrawn

I thought we were having a debate and religion, not making personal remarks anyway.

'about' religion.

sorry, i don't want to offend you, but you do have an interpretation of the bible based on your anger. That's what i think. Sorry. I don't want to make it personal, really.

You're quoting selectively, though, aloha, to give an interpretation of Christianity that suits your agenda.

And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. (vs. 9)

I'm not even interpreting, am I? I'm quoting. It's all there.

Well, yes, I'm quoting selectively! The Bible is a very long book. But I could quote all day. The Bible is full of examples of God's wrath, cruelty, violence, incitement to murder....just endless examples. Now, I know people will say, but Jesus wasn't like that. And I agree. It is bizarrely inconsistent. But Jesus DOES tell his followers to worship the God of the OT. The same God who is so angry and cruel.

It seems to me pretty odd to overlook all of this and then say God is love, when clearly he is not all love by any means, if you believe the Bible.

When asked to put religion on a form I always put none or n/a. Nobody has ever looked twice, and I wouldn't care if they did.

no aloha its not inconsistent. Christ came to show what God was really like. And if you want to ignore that, its fine, but don't tell others what they believe. That is quite personal.

Where did I tell anyone what to believe?

you've told us we believe in a vengeful mass murdering god.

How can quoting the Bible be offensive to Christians? Is the content of the Bible offensive? Or is the OT not part of the christian faith any more? Jesus thought it was, surely?

I can't understand this idea of Jesus coming to show what God was really like. Why did he need to? What was God playing at, hiding the real him for centuries BC?

I don't think my atheism is a matter of faith. It's just my opinion. I'd change it if I had any evidence whatsoever of the existence of a higher being.

but the vengeful mass murdering god is all there in the Bible. I didn't make it up.

There's no point in trying to argue about religion on the basis of logic or reason. Belief is not a rational matter. Imo.

aloha i just gave you an example of why the old testament is the way it is. You're ignoring Christ totally. This argument won't go anywhere. Lets end it! Have the last word if you want.

I'm not ignoring Christ. Christ's God the Father is the God of the OT, yes? Christ told his followers to worship that God?
I agree, there is a big gulf between the two, but Jesus seemed to accept the OT as truth. The Church does too.

oh dear, i shouldn't be answering. the God of the OT is interpreted in a certyain way by an ancient society. Christ came to show God's true face, and to revolutionize the old laws. OK. Enough!

Well God's true face wasn't all that great after Christ either. I'm thinking of the mass burnings that went on all over Europe in the middle ages, of protestants by catholics and vice versa. God returning to OT form? Or was it just that he's the product of the society who has created him?

You're quoting selectively, though, aloha, to give an interpretation of Christianity that suits your agenda.

Isnt that what most believers do too though frogs?

FWIW I think aloha has made many valid points.

Aaaaaargh! I better go. What people do in the name of God is not necessarily God's actions. We have free will, as someone said ages ago. Christ himself showed God's true face, and that is the revolutionizing Law of Love. If you don't want to believe that, fair enough. Strange tho, to claim God has done things when you don;t even believe in God. Its obviously human actions, no?

no point going into it. this thread has gone way off subject, helped its true in large by me.

Yes ruty of course it's human actions, but my point is that the interpretation of god post Christ doesn't seem to have changed all that much from the interpretation BC.

i guess that's because human beings always have an agenda for power and saying 'God told me to do it' is a rather useful excuse. And that never changes. That's why christ was so different.

ruty it's wonderful that you have such a sophisticated and flexible understanding of the bible (i mean that, not being sarcastic), particulayly because the bible is extremely complex, self-contradictory, created over a long period and full of rather unpleasant things which do need some expanation to reconcile them with the concept of a loving god.

however, a GREAT many "christians" (i use quotes because they are far from christ-like) including peple such as george bush and his followers, do not have this sophistication. they claim they believe everything in the bible literally andthey also use it to justify violence. the same goes for islamic fundamentalists and other religious extremists. and unfortunately extremism/fundamentalism does not equate to lunatic fringes - it is increasingly common. aloha's exasperation with the bible may not be just because it's a mass of contradictions, but becauise of the authority it has and the destruction and sorrow that causes. i'm angry with religion too - angry with its ridiculousness and destructiveness, and that i have to share the planet with people who are happy to kill in the name of (imo) made-up god(s). nothing wrong with being angry.