If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

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Being religious, I can have the best of both worlds. Plan to have my mortal remains meld with the atoms, Philip Pullman style in my favourite place in the world. While my immortal soul (hopefully) gets to do its thing somewhere else.

Libby Purves has a lovely bit in her semi-autobiography Holy Smoke, where she imagines a Heaven for her Protestant-Agnoistic father, involving deep leather armchairs, a well-stocked library and subscription to the Times, and the curtains drawn to shut out the garish blaze of eternal glory.

Lovely. A customised heaven for each and every one of us.

Now that, to me, is proof positive that man invented God! Wishful thinking and all that...

Ah, but aloha, I can make jokes about it and take it seriously at the same time. Which is something that atheists (and evangelicals, oddly) find hard to take.

But I think in the end you either 'get' the idea of religion or you don't. I tried quite hard to 'get' Richard Dawkins in my younger days, as his arguments have an honesty and an intellectual rigour that I appreciate. But in the end I had to accept that my brain was not set up to sustain that mode. My dh has the classic English CoE mindset: he can appreciate religion for its aesthetic qualities, but has no vocabulary to understand or discuss its actual content. Which would feel to me like having part of my brain removed.

Btw, what do all you atheists feel about the Narnia books, and the whole Aslan thing? There's a nice article on CS Lewis BBC news site . But I can't imagine feeling the same way about the Narnia books if I was vehemently anti-Christian, in the way that Philip Pullman, say, is. Any opinions?

am reminded of a quote (which, word for word, escapes me, annoyingly) from cs lewis that runs along the lines of atheism being a position of insecurity. faith in general (i suppose christianity in particular) is about belief/affirmation. atheism however is about denial, disavowel - consequently the atheist has most to lose, as he puts it, is forever on the defensive.
i wonder if this goes any way to explaining why some atheists find religion abhorrent? understood like this it's profoundly threatening for them...

I loved Narnia. But then I think ideas of resurrection, curses (esp eternal winter)etc are themes throughout human history that way predate Christianity. I am thinking of Persephone in particular here. I don't need to believe in the Greek myths to think these themes (based on the human fear of winter and scarcity and the joy of spring and fertility, both human and plant) are profound and fascinating. Also good and evil are wonderful themes regardless of faith or lack of it.

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I always think religion is entirely ABOUT human insecurity! It's so needy! And it presupposes an amazing level of self-importance IMO - all that, there is a great big being in the sky (or on a mountain or under the sea) who thinks about me all day long. I think there is a certain lovely humility about atheism. We aren't that important. We do what we can to make life beautiful because that is all there is - and it is amazing and lovely and beautiful.
Why do I dislike religion? Um, Crusades, suicide bombers, purdah, circumcision, stoning to death for adultery...

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of course, they are the 'grand narratives' that characterise lots of art, writing etc.
but for religious believers i think they are more pointed, specific than that, which isn't to call (eg) pruni immoral in any way at all.

But aloha, isn't that like blaming parliamentary democracy for the Poll Tax?

What religion is for, IMHO, is "I want my mummy".

pruni, lewis may be sharp & arrogant, but there's a certain logical watertightness in what he says about atheism. (tho it's been a while since i looked at it, this is how i remember it at least.)

aloha - making life beautiful?
there's also a kind of supreme human arrogance in that, no?

But Lion Witch & Wardrobe is so explicitly Christian, no? I remember being shattered as a child by Aslan's death, without realising explicitly that it was a Christian allegory. But with adult eyes, the betrayal, the willing victim, the resurrection, the whole bit -- as an atheist, I think it would make me feel slightly queasy. And I'm sure it only had such a powerful effect on me as a child because I was so familiar with the crucifixion narrative.

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pruni, don't say that...! will be compelled to go rummaging for it & follow it through, which i really don't have time for...& now will HAVE to!

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Oh, JanH, sometimes religion is "I want my daddy". Depends if it's a shouty bossy religion or a soft cuddly one. (Yes, I'm being stereotypical about gender stuff.)

frogs, interesting. i too was gutted/shattered whatever word you choose, about aslan - having no idea (as a - 7 or 8?? yr old) of the allegorical framework. it's strong stuff, whether you 'get' it or not IMO.

sorry pruni, it'll keep me awake, really it will!
i'll look it up & then start a highly strung thread about it, just for you

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So you won't be taking the kids to see Narnia, then, Pruni? Actually I agree re. his theology. I read the Screwtape Letters years ago, and found there was something indefinably yucky about it, even before I was in a position to analyse it. So you're not alone. But Narnia rocks.

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frogs, i'm not thinking of screwtape letters, it was somewhere else in his writings.

'a grief observed' is still one of the most painful things i've ever read. it's raw.