If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

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I'm intrigued by your attitude, aloha. I'm a Catholic, but the fact that other people believe different things doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm prepared to accept that there may be truths in other religions, that maybe they share communalities at levels that are not apparent to us. I also accept that it is entirely possible that all religious belief is a delusion, or a projection of human desires. I can live with that.

But for the atheists on here, particularly aloha, it seems to go beyond disagreeing with religious faith. It's almost as if the mere existence of faith offends you. This is my gripe with Richard Dawkins, whose arguments for the non-existence of God are sound (if a little bleak). But I can't quite fathom the fact that he minds so much what other people believe -- his almost messianic need to debunk religion once and for all.

Other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof bother me about as much as their tastes in interior furnishings. I note that it's different, I may disagree with their choice, or find it slightly tasteless (I have an issue with the anti-evolution brigade, for example, which seems to be a rather unpleasant mix of junk science and junk theology). But I would never presume to criticise or even comment on someone's atheism unless they started a discussion first -- and I'm shocked by the experiences of those of you who have been criticised for your lack of belief. I just can't see why other people should find religion per se quite so offensive.

PMSL @ this thread!!!! Apes..... Humans.. HAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Sorry this is getting quite educational.

Frogs - I think following a religion goes a bit deeper than just having the same favourite colour or soft furnishing to someone else.

I'm not offended by peoples belief in the bible.... but I do find it ludicrous that this book is taken as a way to live your life.... without question!

I find Richard Dawkins really repellent too Frogs. His vehemence is counterproductive IMO in that it is offensive enough to stop me actually getting through any of his writing.

Frogs - really sorry... my last post didn't come across as I wanted it to!!!! Obviously you know that religion is deeper than that.... I was just saying that accepting someone elses tastes is a great comparison as religion is more than just a taste.

Atheism isn't a belief, it's an absence of belief ergo nothing to explain!

frogs - because if you believe something strongly and you know you're right, then it's dishonest to smile politely when someone talks what you believe to be bollocks.

I remember being taught by nuns that if I were ever to come across a benighted atheist (such as my now self), then it was my duty to lead them to christ. Not doing so was a selfish self-indulgence, allowing someone to go to hell in the name of good manners.

I can see their point of view. Mad, not very good dinner party guests, but logical, surely?

Also, I'm sure Dawkins or Aloha don't rant on at dinner parties or whatever, berating religious believers (although perhaps some of us will find out next week - perhaps she does!) but if you're participating in a discussion, of course you're going to say exactly what you think, perhaps in a blunter manner than you would in a social context because in a social context it wouldn't be good-mannered.

Come to think of it, I don't think I ever did attempt to lead anyone to Christ. Selfish, me.

Frogs - please note that I have not said in my posts that faith offends me, in fact far from it, my DH is Catholic also and if I was so offended by religion then I would not have respected his wishes by marrying in church (I did however feel hypicritical to an extent) but thought his belief in God was more important than my non-belief - does that make sense?

Just to add.... my DH is Catholic too....

There is a difference in debating what one side or the other believes to be bollocks though calgula, and being abusive, which I've seen Richard Dawkins do on TV and in print. He does cross a line IMO.

Sackache, yes of course, it was a deliberately fatuous example. But I genuinely don't feel offended by other people's beliefs, even though I might have an intellectual or emotional distaste for them. For example, having had a fairly high-octane religious education, I find the slightly fey, spirity, occulty sort of beliefs irritating. Not overly keen on the serious born-again squad either, because I find the theology of it completely unrigorous. And of course I make judgements about people (rightly or wrongly) on the basis of what they believe. But I don't find the mere existence of these beliefs problematic to the extent that i would want to start arguing against them.

No, I wasn't assuming aloha harangues people at dinner parties! But in a forum like this where people conduct arguments in a way they wouldn't face to face, I am constantly surprised by the strong reactions people express against religious belief per se.

I don't think it's dishonest to smile nicely while someone expresses opinions you know (or believe) to be bollocks. Unless someone clearly wants to start an honest discussion about that opinion (be it politics, religion or fashion sense) that's just common politeness.

But then where's the fun in that

Where indeed, Chloe.

lol Chloe!

Frogs - rightly or wrongly I would say everything I post to someones face... and probably have with a few gins down me.

That's what I hate about English dinner parties. Everyone's so bloody boringly polite.

Caligula - You should come to a Scottish one then!

Or our house!!

Particularly on a Sunday evening after a booze-up with both my family and in-laws (preferably around christmas time so we can discuss why we get presents if we don't believe in Jesus!)

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Not managed to read all this yet, but while your on the subject of dinner parties, we can sometimes can into huge debates with ILS who are born again Christians at the dinner table. What starts of as a polite "Id rather you didnt by those books for DS" turns into a "youre going to hell and will suffer eternal damnation".

The "Oh, but you will see" look on their face annoys me to the point that if they werent my ILS, I would seriously concider telling them to F off.

My point is that it really infuriates me that some people cannot accept that you do not have a 'belief' other than that you dont, IYSWIM. That your 'belief' is as strong as theirs never seems to be good enough.

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Seems fair enough, Pruni. I'm going to be boring and agree with you.

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You are right Pruni, its best I shut up , I dont know anything about evolution. Thanks for the warning