If you are an atheist...

[Pruni]

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Pruni, I guess I'm never really asked to argue it.

But if I ever am, I just say that I have no evidence of any deity and I'm not remotely interested in one and tbh I'm not really interested in having the other person try and convince me that there is a higher being because I've made up my mind and I have heard all the arguments and not been convinced by them, and it all gets a bit boring after the thirtieth time.

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lol at 'off the shelf bargain pack'. Liek the idea of 'imaginary friend' one too. But I still think you lot are deludign yourselves.

Hmmm, I would say that having to work within, and to some extent devise, your own moral/ethical framework is a lot more strenuous than claiming a spiritual get-out clause, me.

(Am embittered, though, by various spiritual yet badly behaved people I have known at various points in life.)

I don't think being an atheist necessarily means believing nothing unreal exists. But I'm not entirely sure what that means, tbh

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I think scientologists believe in intergalactic walruses and martian bishops.

The morals thing is funny, but as I've got a philosophy degree, I can talk morals in more detail than anyone would ever want.

I do think that being good for fear of God is no better than being good for fear of the police. Truly moral people are moral out of more than fear, whether they're Christian or not.

the prob ia the truth is just too inflammatory
i.e. I thought about it for years and years and decided it was all nonsense
ont really an inoffensive way to say that
so I just keep quiet, so I think people assume I can still be persuaded...

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Blimey, Pruni, you know some rude Christians! That is pretty offensive.
I believe very strongly in respecting other people's beliefs, or none. I definitely don't think Christians or members of any other faith have a monopoly on morals or ethical behaviour but find my own Christian faith a useful framework to make sense of the world I live in. Most of my friends are atheists or agnostics and it never causes difficulty between us.

MI spiritual is the word isn't it?
that's the crux of it
can you be atheist and spiritual
I would assume not
does that make me a shallower person?
maybe but there's no other choice is there?
can't pick and mix

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yep you're right nqc, scientologists have told stories about being run over by a Martian bishop driving a steamroller, being transformed into an intergalactic walrus that perished after falling out of a flying saucer in previous lives. No comment on that except they don't think they are gods.

I don't know Pruni
I occasionally have a crisis about it
I find meaning and joy in lots of "spiritual" art
say the opening of Bach's St Johns Passion, which I find sublime
but what am I really feeling?
can I appreciate it with the same depth of feeling as someone with religious belief?
god I sound pretentious

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L. Ron Hubbard. Not sure if it has official 'religion' status. I think it did try to get recognised as a religion for tax purposes or soemthing.

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But HC, there are many composers who were agnostics and atheists but composed fabulous, stirring, sacred music. Isn't there a big question mark over Mozart's likely beliefs for example?
Bach was famously devout, sure, but the Mass in G Minor is one of the most sublime pieces I have ever sung and I am sure I read that V-W was a happy agnostic!
I don't think your aesthetic appreciation of Bach is diminished by your lack of religious convictions...

Listen to the pair of you!
There are many more non-believers in the world of the arts than believers, I am pretty sure.

oh yes beauty I am all for beauty
also truth
but that's all there is, isn't there

sob

oh yes beauty I am all for beauty
also truth
but that's all there is, isn't there

sob

Heard someone describe himself as a 'cultural Jew' recently and realised that what I am is a 'cultural Christian' (daughter of two missionaries, brought up Protestant, adult confirmation, then realised in my thirties I didn't believe it). The Bible and liturgy are so much part of my life I could never separate them out, but I understand them in terms of myth and metaphor nowadays.

I don't like 'atheist' (though it is accurate in my case): 'humanist' works better for me because it's about what I do believe rather than what I don't.

I don't do off-the-shelf morals either, which is partly why I had to stop trying to be a christian. My old church's teachings on infant baptism, homosexuality, and other issues are frankly repellent.

You can shop around for that kind of thing within the C of E though Eemie
Lots of the Anglo-Caths especially provide a refuge for divorced/gay/liberal Christians...and the music is generally better too...

Doesn't 'spiritual' mean 'connected with things of the spirit'? Could be the human spirit, not the holy spirit.

Spiritual values to me include those to do with feeling, emotion and understanding rather than e.g. food and shelter and consumer durables.

Religious music (including that written by atheists like Verdi, Berlioz, VW) moves me because it connects us with all the other people who have performed it and listened to it.