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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

If you are an atheist...

500 replies

Pruni · 17/11/2005 23:07

Message withdrawn

OP posts:
ruty · 19/11/2005 18:19

nothing wrong with being angry - as long as you know what you are angry at. I am angry at Bush, Blair, on a personal level myself and God, amongst others! And definitely at what goes on in the name of religion - drives me crazy. But i had a problem with this idea of being an athiest because God is a mass murderer and She/He is hateful. this seems to be a very angry idea, and of course you can use the Bible to back up any argument really, because it has so much opaque meaning and metaphor, and so many voices. I mean South Africa used the bible to justify apartheid. But that is why Christ came. Anyway, it does seem sometimes that some athiests [NOT all] have a very literal and very simplistic idea of the bible, and that means they hate a God they don't believe in. Doesn't quite make sense to me.

glitterfairy · 19/11/2005 18:24

Ruty I am not sure that God and the bible are the same thing in any case. Disliking the bible does not mean you dislike God. The bible has many useful stories and is wonderful if you study language or literature but to me it is a book and nothing more.

I am not religious at all and could not describe myself as anything because to me they are all belief systems. Until I have proof I have no idea.

laligo · 19/11/2005 18:26

well god acc. to the bible, DID kill lots of humans as a punishment - including innocent ones. if that's not strictly true (ie noah's flood, sodom and gomorrah etc were just wrongly interpreted natural disasters) why is the OT still part of the "authoritative" bible and why did christ, when he came to put things straight, not explain that previous assessments of god as vengeful were wrong?

madmarchhare · 19/11/2005 18:27

I think its more of wondering how such a God can be revered so. The argument moves on and then it becomes necessary to quote in such a way to make a point.

madmarchhare · 19/11/2005 18:29

in responce to rutys comment about hating a god they dont believe etc...

laligo · 19/11/2005 18:32

yes and as aloha asks, was it or was it not the same god who did nasty things in the OT, who christians worship now?

either god has changed his ways - and so was wrong in the first place - impossible according to christian theology - or the bible is wrong. which?

monkeytrousers · 19/11/2005 18:33

Kelly ? ?but can you put the 'amazing wonder and power of nature and life itself' down to pure biological/physical processes and nothing more??

What do you mean ?nothing more?? If that?s not amazing powerful and wonderful then nothing is!

monkeytrousers · 19/11/2005 18:42

Frogs - Dawkins? crusade is to keep the church and state separated. Belief in god is unfalsifable and therefore can never be considered scientific.

ruty · 19/11/2005 18:42

I don;t get it. 'I don't believe in god because she/he is so horrible'. Either you believe in God or you don't. If your're determined to believe he/she is so awful, and that's your reason not to believe, fair enough, but that is not the God that Christ showed us. Christ was working with his own people, to whom the OT was law. Instead of rubbishing it and alienating them, he taught them gently, thru his actions and words, what God was really like. If you ever get to see the Aramaic translated into English straight it is so different from our version translated from Aramaic, into Greek, and then into English. I have to go now, sorry. But i still think athiesm is an act of faith too!

roosmum · 19/11/2005 18:43

this thread seems to have taken quite a different direction, but to answer aloha (from way down the thread) - um, YOU said beauty was all actually. i never quote people back at themselves because it sounds smug & trite, but it'll be better than paraphrasing in this case i think: "We do what we can to make life beautiful because that is all there is" (aloha).

a serious question tho for the atheists - if they're still on board with this thread! - which goes back to the original question....
if you believe in evolution/big bang theory or whatever for the origins of the universe...then so far, no problem. what if you try to imagine the universe (or void, or whatever term you can use for something hardly imaginable) BEFORE this process or event? personally this is where anything outside of the idea of a creator god falls short. & yes, when i try to imagine being an atheist - & trying perhaps to 'explain' my atheism to someone else - that's when the anxiety, the panic even, sets in. logically, however you reason it out, there's nothing else that makes sense to me. i guess we've all heard the quote (provenance escapes me) that if god didn't exist, man would've had to create him, but that just doesn't do it for me.
just a thought & a genuine curiosity in how atheists explain this, which to me would be the crux of why their 'belief' is ultimately unsustainable.

monkeytrousers · 19/11/2005 18:52

laligo - surely if god existed there'd be no such thing as 'natural' disasters..

ruty · 19/11/2005 19:01

probably my fault roos mum! monkey trousers it seems both a fundamentalist and an athiest idea that God controls everything that happens on this planet. We operate under Free will, so she/he can't control everything. 'God moves in mysterious ways' is a cliche but she/he has actually given us so many opportunities as we evolve to protect ourselves and this planet - opportunities that we ignore in our thirst for money and power. For example, the western countries could have helped the countries that suffered under the tsunami to buy an early warning system. they didn't. God's fault or ours? The rainforests may have provided so many cures for diseases but we cut most of them down. God's fault or ours?

ruty · 19/11/2005 19:01

my poor ds is being neglected so promised dh now to turn pc off!

Mud · 19/11/2005 19:07

have a huge issue with dogged belief in centuries of corrupt and male interpretations of a book and an even bigger issue with evangilism

i tell people i believe in joanthan livingstone seagul

Papillon · 19/11/2005 19:09

I thought that God just created us and doesn´t control us? Cripes, we are more than puppets on a "string"! Hence why natural disasters occur, it is life created in all its forms. So disaster can occur in all its forms.

It is good and bad manifested. Energy does not require a God - but human explanations for more than ourselves and the Earth does.

I don´t believe that is God, I just see it as energy and dimensional levels of existence within our sensory range. Rather than worship I try to live within it. I suppose that means I am a spiritual atheist

Papillon · 19/11/2005 19:09

I thought that God just created us and doesn´t control us? Cripes, we are more than puppets on a "string"! Hence why natural disasters occur, it is life created in all its forms. So disaster can occur in all its forms.

It is good and bad manifested. Energy does not require a God - but human explanations for more than ourselves and the Earth does.

I don´t believe that is God, I just see it as energy and dimensional levels of existence within our sensory range. Rather than worship I try to live within it. I suppose that means I am a spiritual atheist

Papillon · 19/11/2005 19:10

doh!

Hi Ruty and MT

Roobie · 19/11/2005 19:21

I believe in God and have at various time played devils advocate with myself in an attempt to understand atheists. I can always get so far towards the atheistic perpective but am always pulled up short by the fact that everything has to have been created...therefore it follows that there must be something right at the beginning that is uncaused and has always existed ie God. It's hard for humans to get their heads around this I know as the concept of infinity is not something our finite brains are capable of fully understanding.

harpsichordcarrierforcharidee · 19/11/2005 19:25

lol at "losing a good friend to evangelism..."

Mud · 19/11/2005 19:30

why does everything have to be created by some being? that doesn't make sense at all. primordial ooze anyone? evolution? big bang theroy?

if eveyrhtjing has to be created by some being then who created the being?

Roobie · 19/11/2005 19:39

That's the whole point though mud. It seems reasonable to conclude that there must be something uncaused right at the beginning of the chain - something that "self-exists" so to speak, something that created the primordial ooze or the minute whatever that gave rise to the "Big Bang" or even Adam and Eve - the principal is the same.

Pruni · 19/11/2005 19:45

Message withdrawn

OP posts:
Mud · 19/11/2005 19:45

no dont' get that at all

why is it reasonable to conclude that there is something befor the primordial swamp rather than the thing that exists being primordial swamp

Caligula · 19/11/2005 19:57

I'm also irritated to be told that my atheism is based on faith.

No it's not. As I said before, if there were concrete evidence that God existed, I'd change my opinion, because it's not based on faith.

Roobie · 19/11/2005 19:59

What created the primordial swamp? You seem to be accepting that no matter how far back you go there will be something that has always existed - matter is therefore eternal? This seems to be a extremely unscientific concept - are atheists really happy with this?

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