Doxologies, Delirium and Discussion: Religion Chat Thread number 3

[nickelbabyhatcher]

Here we are!

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Oldies welcome, newbies welcome, anyone welcome!

It's basically a "what happened in church/spiritual life/anything else you want to chat about that's vaguely related (or not) to churchy stuff.

Good plan nickel, you ought to go for it!!

i might....

Quiet on here at the moment! Nickel - saw your post last week mentioning Living Light and thought I'd try the free copy to see how I get on - it arrived today and I'm going to try to keep up with it over the summer :). Summer holidays often feel like a bit of a spiritual desert as I miss all the church playgroups and our Mums Study Group at church (fortnightly in term time).

it's actually really hard to keep up if you don't have a routine.

we always do it over dinner (DH is a very slow eater, so there's always tiem after I've finished! )
I read the reading, then read the reflection for the day.
I find you have to read the whole reading every day, or it makes no sense at all.
there's even a little prayer at the bottom to do - we tried that, but it felt weird, so we just do the reflection.
It's a good thing to do as a family, i reckon. :)

Well, here is a question to get your teeth into. We have been reading (Jeff Lucas) about the early church and came to the story of Peter's jail break and how it was easier to get out of jail than it was to get into the prayer meeting. (Acts 12: 1-19) And then especially v5: So Peter was kept in prison, but the church was earnestly praying for him.
Now someone said to me on the efficacy of prayer:"If the church had not been praying, Peter would have died in prison." The question is:- do I believe that? What about the sovereignty of God? Was it His will that Peter got out of prison? On the other hand, if not, then what is the point of prayer?
What do you think?

This is such a difficult concept and I find it hard to get my head around - I've asked the question myself - why ask for things in prayer if God already has a plan in place and the outcome will be what it is going to be anyway. And if not and God changes His plan does that imply that God's plan isn't perfect? It links in with predestination and the extent to which we have free will and accountability for our choices. I found this website www.christianity.net.au/you/ helpful (some of the questions under the headings of free will and prayer). The bible tells us to present our requests to God in prayer and to pray for things in accordance with God's will and that God loves to answer our prayers. Will try to clarify my thoughts some more and post again later... I do come back to proverbs 3:5 a lot - that I don't need to rely on my own understanding but trust in God with all my heart.

Ooh good question!

We were talking with a lad about driving and how one person we know has had lots of minor accidents (in our car ) and how he hadn't and he said 'ahh it's because I pray before I drive'. Now I'm not saying that isn't the reason, and we do often start a long journey with a quick prayer, but I'm just not sure it works like that, and actually it's a little bit too close to the whole prosperity gospel thing which I am definitely not keen on - the kind of I'm good or Godly and so God will bless me more than someone else.

But on the other hand I do believe that prayer works and I've seen times when it's certainly seemed like it has

Great question, will have a ponder but a bit knackered now. Took the dc to see their new school and house today - they love it. The school is absolutely wonderful and the head seems lovely - really friendly and welcoming. Think they will be v happy there :) The house is fab, but so thankful we are getting it decorated, we also need to replace some of the carpets, in the lounge and our room, so it will be costly but they really need it as they are mangy and doggified! Not v great for my chest. When it is done up it will be lovely. We walked round to school and it was about a 3 min walk. There is also a doctors, shop and chippy next to the school, all so ideal and such a blessing. Feel excited but also unsettled iyswim? Trying to sort out paint colours with dh tonight, should be a raging argument fun.

Hope everything works out for you MHD. Will your medical treatment be different/at a different hospital? Will you have to explain everything over again to new doctors?
Glad people think that at least it is not a dumb question, I've been thinking about it quite a bit.

Still pondering... I do remember one of my study group leaders saying once that it can be helpful to think of a parent/child relationship - when our children ask us for things we might say yes/no/later etc. When we say yes it might be because we had intended it anyway or it might be that we didn't have a specific plan with respect to that request so are happy to allow it. As with any human analogy it isn't perfect...

No, it isn't. I have also heard that prayer is more for our benefit than to 'get' anything. I wonder what 'the church' was praying? Did they ask for Peter's release. For him to have courage?They certainly did not expect to se him.
Another very strange thing later on in the chapter (how dangerous it is to look too close at the text) vs 17 it says that peter daid "Tell the brothers and James.." Now in vs 2 it says that Herod had James killed with the sword and then proceeded to imprison Peter. So was this a different James? Did Peter not know of James' death?
I annoy myself with churning these things up, I pesented our minister with a couple of them, different ones, but he is not really engaged with it.

I know what it is like to get questions churning round in your head, it happens to me often - it is good to have an outlet here! While pondering this evening I ended up at Isaiah 55 7-8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." I think that might be a message to me

On the James mentioned in v17 my life application study bible says that this refers to Jesus' brother James (who became a leader in the Jerusalem church) rather than the James who was killed who was John's brother and one of the original disciples.

should have been isaiah 5: 8-9

it is too late - make that isaiah 55: 8-9.

good night...

Oh, that is helpful Newlark.

Both issues. Hope you slept well, I did. And the weather is absolutely gorgeous here, must get up and get out.

Hello!! Interesting discussion about prayer. It's something I've often pondered myself. I do think that prayer is about a personal relationship with God and that the more we pray, the more "in tune" with God we become. Like any friendship, the more you spend time with someone, the more you come to understand them and with best friends, you often think in a very similar way. I strive for this is in my relationship with God.
The problem with this though is that I often wonder why I'm praying for something I really want if all that will happen is I will become more understanding of the fact that God doesn't want it to be.

I like a combination of the above and also Newlark's analogy of the parent. If it is something God doesn't already have a specific plan for then he will respond to prayer in love. I also don't think God has a set plan for everything. He loves us and we have free will which must mean that God has to work with a lot of ambiguity and have to keep adapting his thoughts!

This leads me on to a question from me.....
Do any of you have a spiritual director? It is something that I really think I would benefit from but I'm not exactly sure how it works. I also worry that it would feel a bit like counselling and (after a bad experience with a Christian counsellor whilst at uni) I don't respond well to counselling.

I try to avoid discussions about prayer - hope you don't mind :)
It's mainly because the whole thing goes right over my head!
I stick to the set prayers in services, and say Amen at the right time, but I cannot do my own prayers - it just feels false. (i think i've mentioned this before)
and as for the power of prayer, yes, i think it exists, but at the end of the day, if it's God's will what happens anyway, is there much point? (i think you DutchOma touched on that with Paul in prison)
I think maybe, on one hand, it's a way of making humans feel like they're doing something practical in times when there is nothing that can be done.

ooh, look at me, not entering into discussions on prayer!

do carry on the discussion, though.
:)

We had RSCM Music Sunday yesterday. It was fabulous.
the guides sounded good - not technically perfect, but they were complete beginners!
They put so much effort into it, and sang with enthusiasm the whole way through the service.
It was lovely.
I took a couple of photos, so i'll put them on photobucket and link them in a bit.

Then in the evening, the PCCs of our churches and Holy Trinity and Bobbing had to meet with the archdeacon to discuss the Team Ministry.
they had done a proposal plan, which looks great on paper.
The most worries i think people had were the idea of the person who will become the team vicar (the team rector will be the vicar of Trinity, because he's the only incumbent in our 4 churches at the moment)(DH wasn't very happy about that idea, because the man is very very happy clappy, and DH is worried that he'll try to put that into all the churches- that won't happen because the team rector will be in charge of "cure of souls" of Trinity and Bobbing, and the team Vicar will be in charge of "cure of souls" for St Mary and St Michael - plus he said that he wants people who want a Radio 1 church to be able to go to one, and those who want a Radio 2,3 or 4 church should also be able to get one - and that people in the other churches of the Team will be able/willing to point people in that direction. ie, we all work as a team, not as individual churches trying to pilfer all the congregation. ), because of the fiasco with our last vicar... , and also the support that the team would get from above (there's always a worry that a Team will be put in place and then left to get on with it, with no idea how to move on or progress)

I have to admit nickel that it is something I find difficult myself - particularly praying out loud in a group situation which I tend to find excruciating but am working on . I've used the prayer "Lord, teach me to pray" many times... I think it is important because it is one of the ways in which we build our relationship with God - in the same way that we build our relationships with friends/family by speaking to them/spending time with them. to go back to the parent/child analogy - I know my parents are always happy to hear from me - whether we are just chatting about what we're up to, asking advice or whether I am asking for something (babysitting usually ). I do find it hard to find the words sometimes (using prayers others have written sometimes helps) and I understand what you mean when you say that your own prayers feel false but gradually I'm finding what works for me.

Thank you all for thinking about this with me, especially Nickel who didn't want to think about it, but still did.
I once got very angry with God and gave up prayer. "I'll never ask anything of you again," I said, "just leave me alone." Of course I couldn't and found myself time and again talking to God. "Just leave me alone," I said. And God said "My dear child, I can't".
So to a certain extent prayer for me is being 'in touch' with God, rather than asking for things. That's why I am wonderig what 'the church' in Acts was praying about with reference to Peter. And why I think that "Your will be done" is probably the most significant of the calauses in the Lord's prayer. And one of Jesus' prayers too.

nickel, glad you had a good day yesterday. :)

DO, yes I will have to change all the consultants, physios etc. Such a pain having to do the whole thing again. Really hoping for a cystic fibrosis specialist because they totally are up with all the latest treatments etc whereas general lung consultants know their stuff but not so detailed on my particular problem. I just get tired of starting all again....GPs as well, they are often the most difficult because many don't get it, it being so rare, and need to do a lot of reading up and research, some won't, some will. sigh...

Prayer....hmmm. There's been some really good thoughts on it on this thread. I think that we all come to it in different ways - some like nickel are comfortable with praying through liturgy and music, and some others find it a kind of conversation throughout the day, like a running on thing. As for why we pray, I guess the first reason is that Jesus prayed, and that Jesus told his disciples to pray, and therefore I feel it is an obedience thing. However it goes way beyond that. Jesus' parable about the man nagging his neighbour for bread always fascinates me. Does it mean that if we don't let up on God he will give us what we want? I'm not sure. I've come round to see it differently. Prayer I think is more about working with God in his plans somehow, in getting in tune, in finding out what he is saying. A couple of years ago at New Wine I felt God speak to me very clearly about praying for a group of girls I had got to know at the school gates, and in fact interceding deeply for them. There was something amazingly powerful in this, and I can say I have seen God work powerfully in this, they now are my little group and all profess faith and are finding God at work in their lives more and more. It's very exciting, but I really believe without that intercession it would not have happened.

But that is it - it was God's plan - and part of God's plan and foreknowledge was that I would intercede. Maybe that's why people aren't often healed etc. Maybe it's just not part of what God is doing at the time. Sometimes it is. I always believe it's right to carry on praying, carry on nagging as it were, but sometimes there is not an answer as such.

I have to say though that getting deeper into prayer over the last couple of things has been incredible. I've seen answer after answer to prayer and just felt I've got to know God better. It's awesome. So for that alone it's worth praying as well.

So in the end I'm not entirely sure prayer 'changes God's mind.' God is outside time and knows what will happen and knows we will pray. Somehow it fits all together beautifully, but we just can't see it.

Wow MHD, just WOW. Thank you.

Hope medical things work out for you.

okay. photos of music sunday!
1
2
3
4
5
my favourite is number 4, because everyone looks like they're enjoying themselves!

SES - on your question about spiritual directors - I haven't come across this term but I kind of like the idea - not necessarily in a formal way but having a link with a more mature christian with whom you can freely raise questions and who can point you in the right direction. I feel very lucky that in the church I belong to there are lots of forums where you do have the opportunity to raise questions and can build relationships like this - home groups/one-to-one and group bible study /prayer triplets/courses like Christianity Explored and Discipleship explored. I guess my study group leaders are acting like spiritual directors for each of us in the group.