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Philosophy/religion

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Doxologies, Delirium and Discussion: Religion Chat Thread number 3

1000 replies

nickelbabyhatcher · 05/04/2011 16:49

Here we are!

Roll up and sign in!

Oldies welcome, newbies welcome, anyone welcome!

It's basically a "what happened in church/spiritual life/anything else you want to chat about that's vaguely related (or not) to churchy stuff.

OP posts:
madhairday · 06/05/2011 15:41

aaagh nickel PCC meetings are no fun. Hope it goes ok.

NW is New Wine :)

I've noticed a lack of Baroque round MN too - have also said on FB but she didn't say anything - hope she's ok.

nickelbabe · 06/05/2011 15:43

New Wine? Grin

I would like that.
I bet all the New Winers, though, are tee-total Wink

PandaG · 06/05/2011 16:19

I can assure you nickel that this particular NWer is not tee-total (and neither are the vast majority of the church family I go with) Grin

have spoken to BAroque on FB too, she said she'd almost forgotten about MN! I too hope she's ok.

I'm watching Stormbreaker with DS - I read it before he did, checking what he was reading. He's now borrowed the film from a mate, is lovely to be enjoying watching something together, while DD is out playing with a friend!

nickelbabe · 06/05/2011 16:30
Grin

Shock - how can she have almost forgotten about MN????? Shock just Shock

sounds like a lovely afternoon.

madhairday · 06/05/2011 19:05

I don't think I know any New Winers who are teetotal, nickel Grin

It's kind of part of the tradition of it, to sit round at night drinking ermmm ... wine. New or old will do.

It is a great festival. I've been going for over 20 years [old git emoticon]

hotcrossSES · 06/05/2011 21:19

Ooh I'd love to go to NW at some point. Never been but I've only heard good things. Do you think they'd let an ex- Anglican in Wink
Maybe one year we could do a thread meet up there

Panda - interesting to hear of the discussion about discipling. With not a lot of experience (yet!) I too think I would tailor to the individual child.

All fine here - ILs arrived and we're all set for a weekend of partying for DS's 2nd birthday :)

PandaG · 06/05/2011 21:52

anyone of any denomination welcome to NW - would be great to see you there SES! Hope birthday party goes well. Smile

madhairday · 08/05/2011 17:43

You ought to come to NW SES, you'd love it, it's for any denomination, tends to be a lot of anglicans there as it originated in anglican church but loads go from all sorts ;)

Afternoon all. Quiet here. Been away for weekend, with my lung disease buddies, has been lovely. Ultra knackered now.

madhairday · 09/05/2011 10:40

Morning

Hope all ok.

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 10:47

Blimey - you're right mhd - where is everyone?

more important things to do on the weekend? Shock

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 10:49

the fact that Holy Trinity is one of the NW churches tells me it's not for me.

Hmm

www.new-wine.org/join-in/find-a-church#searchtop
type in Sittingbourne, and it's the first one on the list.

nothing wrong with that church, but it's what I'd call a long long way from traditional.

MaryBS · 09/05/2011 11:04

I've been training wannabe priest on autism, and then yesterday I was assisting "up front" at the family service, cantoring the kyrie etc, and then it was evensnog last night.

Can I admit to getting carried away during the Gloria, which involved a fair amount of clapping, winding up the kids to get them to join in louder, and then finishing with me punching in the air and shouting "oh yeah" Blush.

I was much more sedate at Evensnog, even though I picked the hymns and was tempted to request that "The Church's One Foundation" be sung to the teddy bears picnic!

madhairday · 09/05/2011 11:14

Looks good to me nickel, it does say on the about us page that there is a 9am traditional service too. My sort of church Grin

Good for you Mary getting carried away in the Gloria. Love it.

Got DCC later and not looking forward to it after the debacle last time.

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 11:26

Mary Grin

I don't approve of your rowdy Gloria
Grin

mhd - the vicar really loves the happy clappy nonsense - all bands and waving arms (just the kind of thing you love, I know.... )
and runs the Alpha course too [shudder]
exactly the opposite of what I class as worship.

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 11:40

you know, our church used to have all that going, too.
sunday school, creche, lively services etc.
Nick really mucked that up for us.
he really did choke our church half to death.

It's very hard to recover from that.
and I swear that most of those left have got so much to do now that they don't care anymore - they're so burdened they can't take anything else on.
and we need a lot of work done to bring us back to where we were 10 years ago.
Every time something is suggested, it gets poo-pooed before it's even given a chance, because the same people would have to do all the work.

That's what happens when a church is choked - can't even say decimated, because we have about 1/4 of the old usual sunday congregation these days.
Tehre aren't enough people to make it work, so it either stays still, or it dies.
we're just about managing to stay still, but God knows what'll happen if we don't get a vicar soon (and of course it depends what kind of vicar we get too!!)

luckily, the new Bishop is extremely fair - he recognises and respects (nay, encourages) churches to find their own method of worship, and he respects all forms (regardless of what his own favourite is). the last bishop wanted to move the church forward, to a more Modern method, which didn't suit us.
which is why we ended up with that knobend as a vicar.

But the only way this can work is if we get more people to support us and help us.

We want to build up the choir, but we can't do anything more than advertise through flyers etc.
I want to go into schools and drum up custom that way, but DH is sooo stupidly shy, that the thought of having to go into schools to talk to the music classes fills him with dread. (and the other organist is no better.)
I would do it, but I never have time off from the shop during the week.
(and i don't think music classes would be prepared to listen to me after 6 o'clock in the evening!)

Ideally, I would love to have a Junior Choir practice on Wednesdays, earlier on, say 6o'clock, as well as the Friday one.
That way, we can work on learning to read music, and learning to sing, a lot better than we can with the 1/2 hour before adult practice every Friday - everyone comes in and interrupts, and we barely get warm-up exercises with a quick look at this week's anthems before we have to do the hymns with the adults. And children are too tired at that time on a Friday, too - they've had to do a whole week's school as well as homework, then they can't even relax on a Friday evening cos they've got more work to do!
It's a mess. :(

madhairday · 09/05/2011 13:42

nickel, it sounds like your church has gone through a hard time. What exactly did the knobend vicar do? I know he was fond of more modern stuff but how did he mess it all up? Just interested as I like to know how vicars go about things. Sometimes there is a case for going into a church and shaking it up - usually that's the case in a dying church though (and I don't nec mean that shaking it up means transforming to happyclappy, could be anything) - so if your church was thriving already seems like a mistake was made in this man's appointment and things went rather pear shaped. I'm sorry this happened - you do sound upset about it (no wonder) - do you think it has affected your view of happyclappy (how about HC from now on? Grin ) worship at all? It's just your comments about it being nonsense and the opposite of what you class as worship etc...do you think that bad experience has coloured your view or did you always feel that way?

Not an attack at all - just observations. And it's really coming from the fact that I felt that way, for years about traditional worship - I was in a choir with a sadistic knob very pushy, cruel choirmaster and have bad memories, and I think it truly was what made me hate organ music because it would take me back to those feelings, he never did anything as such, more his manner, he was wierd and creepy and I felt vaguely threatened. So was like that for years, but then managed to start to appreciate that traditional worship was what worked for some, and that some really struggled with HC worship, and I see now that that is as it should be, as we all reflect God's awesome creation in many different ways.

I've had to come to that in a way because of where God called us to - here - ebing a traditional church. I see how people in this congregation are totally sold out for God. And how they love the organ, and the hymns, and it creates worship for them. And the liturgy, and that is great. I think it has helped me become more well rounded in my worship, really, to appreciate it, and to even worship through it, as was not getting what I wanted, as such - almost like saying OK God, it's not as I would have it, but I'll blimmin praise you anyway, because I need to, and besides you said so. And I found such a freedom in doing that (doesn't mean I have grown to love it though I'm afraid!)

OK this is turning into an essay. But I guess it's because your words and phrases about HC reminds me of how I once talked about trad worship, and it'[s interesting to discuss. :)

How are you feeling btw? Hope all is going well.

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 14:32

I know what you mean about the Choirmaster thing - the reason Nick hated Choirs was because he was in one as a boy and hated it. I've only ever had good experience with choirmasters, and very encouraging ones, but you've got to be so careful to get the balance right.

Basically, he was employed on the basis that he would make some changes and bring both churches up-to-date. (the churchwardens even described him as the best of a bad bunch from interview stage)
He used to be a salesman, and as such (from my own experience of pushy salesmen), used to foist his opinion on people, and just charge ahead with stuff. If people disagreed with him, he would shout them down.
He changed all the service times in both churches to the same time each Sunday - not such a bad thing in itself, because at the time, they were swapping between 9:30 and 11am each week.(ie St Mary's would have 11 when we had 9:30 and vice versa)
Waht he did, though, was change them without consultation. He changed St Mary's to 9:30 and St Michael's to 11am, which meant we lost 3 members of the choir straight away, because it was a mum and 2 kids, and she started work at 12.
She tried to tell him about this, and that she would like it to be reconsidered and he basically told her he wasn't listening, was very rude to her, and she stopped coming. When he left, she came back straight away.
(he did rescind about halfway through his term by changing St Michael's back to 10am and St Mary's to an afternoon service of 5pm, but we'd already lost loads by then, and a lot of them wouldn't come back because of him)

He made huge changes other than that, like moving the altar into the nave of the church, and making us all take communion in the middle of the church (to older people and staid traditionals, this was awful, because (they mostly said) that they felt like they were on display.)
He also said, often and loudly, that he wanted to get rid of the choir stalls and have us out in the nave with the congregation (yes, and the communion rails!)(basically, it would mean that while we were singing, we would be in everyone's way, and they would be in ours. We wouldn't be able to see the organ for condusting, and it would have been a total mess)
(we did compromise by going down to the pews during the second hymn for the prayers and sermon - that does mean, however, that noone's allowed to sit on the first 2 rows, or we have to sit down the side aisles, which means that we would have been closer and more visible staying where we were!)

He publically humilated a disabled lady we have, because she used to sit in the central passageway, and when they boarded and carpetted the nave, he made a big deal in the middle of the service, telling her to come up to the front and park her wheelchair in the space. (I overheard her complaining to him about it - she was mortified and really embarrassed at being singled out in the middle of the service)

A lot of people left because he was horribly brash, and nasty in speaking to people - if they didn't agree with him, he wouldn't talk to them seriously. he was also very patronising - talking down to people.

He stood in front of the organ once, telling a visitor how wonderful it was that we had a young organist (a 14year old chorister who was learning), then turned around and told someone else that he would rip the whole thing out if it were up to him (and I really do mean turned around as well- the boy was still at the organ when he heard him say that).

A bereaved lady felt he was very rude to her when she was trying to organise a funeral, and lots of people have said that he never once came out to see them when they had been absent from church for a time due to illness (when a priest from their local church had been to see them, even though they'd never been to that church!)

He decided that, because he preferred St Mary's, that he would make that the "family-centred" church, and made great moves to encourage families to St Mary's - spent a lot of time and effort making St Mary's welcoming and up-to-date, technologically, and basically left St Michael's to rot - he openly showed preference to St Mary's, that's not just speculation. Families stopped coming to St Michael's and going to St Mary's, which didn't help congregation, and we had to close our Sunday School.

He spent effort making a homeless showering and breakfast facility in St Michael's - which isn't a bad thing, but we have no homeless people in this town - they've not had many users of the facility, and it cost a heck of a lot of money to do. (at the time, the fund-raising could have been concentrated on something more immediately important)
He also tried to raise money to get a junior choir going, but he tried to court this professional choirmaster man, who wasn't interested, promising all these money advances (and note, he would have only been a Junior Choirmaster, he wouldn't have had anything to do with the existing choir), and gave the man a copy of the church keys (against advice). the man then moved to Wales with the set of keys. He didn't seem interested from the beginning, and Nick would have been wiser trying to find someone who wanted less money for the position (being's as we didn't have the money, and it would have been fundraising that could have been spent elsewhere, and we were only guaranteed to be able to pay the man for a year anyway! Then what would have happened? sorry, we can't afford you anymore, so the junior choir will have to stop!)

there are loads of other things he said or did, and sometimes I wish he could see these rants I do, because he really brought down morale.

When he had to annouce he was leaving - I grinned like a lunatic at the announcement. The only reason I hid it (eventually) was because he was leaving because his dad had become very ill and so had to go and help his family. I sometimes pray thank you to God for making his dad ill (and I know that sounds awful, but his dad was old and ill anyway, this was just a worsening of his condition, and it was the best thing that had happened to the church in a long while)

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 14:33

"Sometimes there is a case for going into a church and shaking it up - usually that's the case in a dying church though (and I don't nec mean that shaking it up means transforming to happyclappy, could be anything) - so if your church was thriving already seems like a mistake was made in this man's appointment and things went rather pear shaped."

He also got the Choirmaster's back up something chronic - they used to argue like mad (the choirmaster was also our organ mender/tuner, so we kind of needed him)

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 14:34

sorry, forgot to answer the quotation I put in! Blush

there's nothing wrong with transforming a church - it's the fact that he waded in in his size 10s and just did it - no consultation, no questions, no opinions, just "i want to do this, and the bishop says I can do anything I like"

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 14:38

no, i used to have nothing against HC (well, not completely Wink )

a lot of Hc I don't think is necessary, some of it produces euphoric reactions in people.
I like some of the modern music, but I don't like change for changes sake.

I used to be in the choir in a church in Nottingham, where it was a good mix of old and new. We had the Common worship, that changed through the season, so it was always different, and we had some modern stuff and some traditional stuff.
We had a choir, and an organ, and we worked hard. Our choir usually did one traditional and one modern piece during communion, and the whole system worked

If Nick had tried to do that, then it would have been fine. but no, he wanted a"all change" and NOW NOW NOW

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 14:39

(sorry for the long essays - once I started I couldn't stop! Grin
it's like therapy! Grin )

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 15:12

DH has just reminded me that he scrapped evening services (they used to be every week, with one choral evensong) - we refused to let him scrap choral evensong, because that is important to us as a choir, but he scrapped all the others (apparently had too much to do), even though there was a small but regular congregation for all.
(then he buggered off on holiday for a month!)

people offered to help by doing the services as lay people (they weren't communion), but he wouldn't have it.

madhairday · 09/05/2011 16:44

Shock nickel at some of that. He sounds like a bull in a china shop. Hardly the way to go in and listen to the people you have been called to serve, really. There are different situations, some of which warrant a big-change-quickly thing, usually for survival, but what you describe sounds horrendous and hurtful. :( Shock at his treatment of the disabled lady. How come he did go in the end, just to be nosy?

nickelbabe · 09/05/2011 17:20

his dad was ill, and was getting worse, so he went to be with his family.
He moved to Wales and to a church there.

MaryBS · 09/05/2011 17:27

Our former vicar changed a lot of things, and brought in a lot of families to our church, me included. Some people did leave the church over it. Some felt that things had improved for the better. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to attend a church which was solidly traditional, sorry Nickel Blush. Often, its a balance that is needed, as those who want pure tradition are dying out. I tend to describe myself as "charismatic catholic" in that I love the modern worship, but also the sacramental theology.

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