Doxologies, Delirium and Discussion: Religion Chat Thread number 3

[nickelbabyhatcher]

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Oldies welcome, newbies welcome, anyone welcome!

It's basically a "what happened in church/spiritual life/anything else you want to chat about that's vaguely related (or not) to churchy stuff.

Just checking in! I'm here and lurking but really busy so not much time to post. Hope you're all ok

I hope I've not offended you Nickel. Different churches have different needs, and I didn't mean to suggest in anyway your vicar was right to do what he did, as he obviously did some really upsetting/distressing things!

you didn't offend, Mary - I had gone for the evening! :)

Thing is, our church wasn't solidly traditional until he totally ruined everything. We liked mostly traditional, and had some new stuff too, but it was like, one hymn in a service would be modern, and obviously with the choir and organ.
He basically prevented people from wanting to come to the church by making it seem as unwelcoming as he could (I'm sure that bit wasn't on purpose, but he did make a big deal out of the fact he preferred St Mary's)
We're not averse to change: what we don't like is change for change's sake, and the changes that he made, which meant that he put a lot of people's noses out of joint, and alienated people.
It's not unfair to say that a lot of people did not like him at all.

It wasn't that he wanted it all to move forward and be modern, it's that he didn't take any time to sit with the church and learn what its strengths and weaknesses were - he waded in and assumed that traditional was wrong and that HC was the only way to go. And the fact that we wouldn't take that from him, basically meant that he started a war with us from the start.

I am a firm believer that if you go anywhere new as a leader, then you should sit back for a while, watch how it works, then if there's something you don't like, say maybe "can we try X for 6 months and see if we like it? if it works we'll keep it, if it doesn't, we'll return back the way it was" and nothing too radical in one go, small steps.
but no, he came in, threw himself down and went "i'm going to rip these out, and that out, and i'll change that, and put that in, and make this part like this, and that part like that, I don't like that so i'll either get it ripped out or complain about it, but i like that so i'll make sure that everyone goes there and does that" all within a couple of months.
it was like a tornado!

"Our former vicar changed a lot of things, and brought in a lot of families to our church, me included. Some people did leave the church over it. Some felt that things had improved for the better." - it wouldn't have been so bad if it had brought people in, but it didn't!
our regular congregation halved in those 4 years!

he got more families into St Mary's, which is great for them (but i think that was more down to the children's and families' minister than it was him!!), but it left St Michael's empty and neglected.

If you're in charge of TWO churches, then you should do the best for BOTH churches, even if you prefer one to the other!

by the way, we still have the section carpetted in the nave, and the priest/reader does the service from there, but we all go up to the proper altar to receive communion.
and the choir is still in the stalls, but we do go down into the nave/congregation for the sermon.

so, it's not like we don't agree with change, we just don't want to be dictated to, or treated like idiots by someone who doesn't care about us or our needs/wants.

Thing is, I suspect our other 2 churches in the benefice also felt neglected, in that only 1 church was really built up. But part of that is down to numbers, and also the welcome that the churches were prepared to give to families. I went to a garden party at one of the other churches, and found there was no provision for children who didn't like the grown-up cakes on offer. "If they don't like it, they can go without" is what I was told!

(and yes, our vicar didn't sit back - I know this because he arrived in May, I arrived in November, and from what I understood, things had changed dramatically since his arrival!)

Grrrrrrrrr at DCC meetings. Need to vent. We had to talk about the creche area, in our church there is an area at the back where pews were taken out to make an area for children, with books and toys etc, it's nicely laid out and people have commented on how welcome they feel etc because their children can happily play, and in some senses the church is very child friendly, ie noise is tolerated - after all, these are families coming into church, we don't want to make them feel they are not wanted. However, some people feel it detracts from the worship, kids too noisy, unsupervised etc (very rarely the case, but this week we had a new mum in with 4 kids, one of which was a screamer - brilliant that she could come in and the children feel happy to play etc, but got some peoples back up that she let her baby scream, I wasn't there so can't really comment) and anyway some want to put up signs saying 'children should only be in here with a parent at all times' etc, but thing is some of the older ones go in after church and play with the younger ones, always really nicely, read books to the toddlers etc - there is no where else for them to go, and some people get arsey if the kids are just milling around or running a bit or whatever.

It's not that I disagree there should be supervision, just that we are all about welcome, and if parents feel stuck in there with their dc they can't come and join in coffee etc, and the older dc then will get more restless if they can't go and play quietly - we take it in turns now to go and check them but that's not enough apparently. Luckily most were in favour of carrying on as we are as they felt the area is a strength, but some are just sooooo strident about it all, these have been known to bellow at the dc, think they're of the seen and not heard variety.

Phew. Had my vent. That was a long one. But things feel v strained now and I will be watching how the situation is dealt with by certain people.

nickel, I agree with you in general about leaders going in and listening, that is certainly our plan for Telford (not that there is anything there to change!) but there are exceptions, one being where my dad ministered, basically we went into a church on a v rough council estate where the congregation was about 20, there was a power group who ruled the roost and didn't really want anyone off the estate coming, pretty toxic stuff going on which dad had to cull immediately which resulted in about half leaving 'never to darken these doors again' and leaving the remaining faithful who were so enthusiastic about starting again and were brilliant, they'd just been in the shadow of these others, but had been praying for light in the sitaution for years. He didn't go and immediately change the worship (an organ and tiny choir with 2 old ladies and a couple of teenagers) but worked with them and eventually it did transition to HC and became thriving, changed the community completely and transformed so many lives - so sometimes there has to be an immediate action. They've written a book about it if anyone is interested - it's a really interesting read.

I've gone on long enough!!

Mary - our church used to have quite a few families, and children too.
We had a sunday school, which was good fun (and the Junior Choristers also used to go to it during the service - they'd always be back in time for communion), and all our old ladies love the children (you should see the way they fawn around Junior Chorister and his brother! ), so it's definitely not that.
It would have been a lot easier on everyone if Nick had been a more pleasant person....

mhd - for you!
Is there any way you can get this area officially sectioned off?
Say, with a glass partition, so that the children can still feel part of the service, but the noise is reduced?
It would be such a shame if that mum felt she wasn't welcome if her children make noise. :(
(rather like what Mary and I have just been discussing!!)

At my previous church, we had a side chapel that was separated from the church by a glass wall all around, and we used that for one of the children's groups (the noisiest group used to meet in the choir vestry), and it worked really well.
During the week, it was used for quiet prayer etc, but it made a great creche area!
You also need a structure, I think - is there anyone/some people in your congregation who would be willing to be "sunday school teachers" (or just creche supervisors)? That would really help, I think.

I do hate it when people get stuck in their ways so much that it has to be all or nothing!

That's really refreshing about your Dad's church. that's definitely an example of a church that wasn'tworking in its current format and needed change.
we didn't need change. we just needed encouragement (and a nice man as a vicar)
people used to moan about Frank (the previous vicar), and he did annoy some people sometimes, but most people liked him, because he was a nice bloke, and actually cared about the church and its people.

I'd like to read the book - where can you get it from?
(you can PM me if you like.)

oh, talking of PMs - I've finished and published (ish, it's still being stapled) the Magazine - if anyone wants a copy, I'll happily email it (please PM me email addresses, because I won't remember which email belongs to who!)

this is it nickel - don't mind linking. It's out of print but looks like there are used copies around.

Yay at the magazine, I might have a look as I do ours and always good to get new ideas, will pm or fb you later on.

Not sure about the glass wall, as then parents in there may feel even more isolated iyswim - it wouldn't really work in this context, though have seen it work in other places. It is frustrating when you get those so set in ways they won't listen, just want it how they want it. Then again I guess we are all like that sometimes!

Hello - can I join you? I like a bit of church chat and there are far too many nutters on some of the religion boards I have looked at. You all seem far more normal. I have been on MN for aaaaages but I like to lurk and read rather than post much. I miss Baroque - is she OK?
I am currently in the throes of the discernment process after giving in to that niggling call to be a priest, so if anyone wants to chat about that... or anything really....

mhd - there's always someone who gets annoyed. (we're used to that - it's when the whole church gets pissed off at once that's not good! )
it's so horrible when one person is made to feel unwelcome because another doesn't like noise. and i bet they'd be the first to complain if the congregation was shrinking!
Waht about a big board around the usual pew of the complainant?

hi teddies - of course you can join us!
we've been a bit heavy over the past couple of days, but we'll be back to our normal chirpy selves soon, I'm sure!

Baroque's fine, she's just taking a break from MN at the moment. (she's actually got a Real Life! )

I'm sure you can get some great tips on how to and how not to go about your life as a priest

Very of a real life. Do they sell them in Tesco?!

I went to a different church than usual on SUnday where they have a great carpeted area with toys. There was a little boy there who had come with his dad and gran, the dad was having his banns read. The little boy was quite noisy, he was only about 18 months old though, but a woman in the cong went up to the gran and dad during the Peace (!!) and berated them for not controlling the child. I was a bit stunned. it is a big church with a small cong, so I suppose it was quite noticeable if a child is loud, and they weren't doing an awful lot to stop him running up and down the back of the church (which I wouldn't let my dc do) but even so......
It is a church in an interregnum, I am sure the visiting priest would have had a fit if he'd known what the lady had said. It was one of those times when you wish you had the nerve to say something but feel better to keep quiet. I did feel awkward though

Righto, got to go and fetch the dc but will be back later. Glad I found this thread.

at that lady - I would have had a go at her!
(not blaming you for not, it is hard to know what to say)

at that lady too!

Welcome teddies. Will be good to chat more about your exploration of calling. dh is a curate (nearly a vicar) so do enjoy talking it all through.

Hello all! I have a day off work and DS is in nursery and ILs have just gone! I don't know what to do with myself and

Interesting chat on here about leadership, children in services, traditional v HC - it's been a good read :)

I think we're quite lucky in our church to have a good balance between traditional, organ and HC music - all chosen to fit with the liturgy. Also our 10.30 service is very accepting of noisy disruptive children (thank goodness!) There is a Children's Liturgy split into 3 age groups from reception age children up to about 10yo. We also have "Happy Bags" for younger children with colouring books, cuddly toy and other books in - usually one that is a book of prayers or explains the mass or a Bible story. DS has just started to enjoy his happy bag each week and will go and get it before the service starts. We do also have a glass wall separating the side chapel which is often used in services other than the 10.30 if anyone feels more comfortable there with their noisy LO!

As for leadership, I think a strong parish council is really key. Nickel - it sounds like your previous vicar was like a tornado. Did he have much experience before he got to you?
About 5 yrs ago, we had our 3 local parishes merge into one parish. This was really tough on everyone as we had to look at times of services, what we would call the new parish, how to be one parish but retain the identities of the 3 communities, etc. It also came at a time when the number of priests was reduced - there used to be one in each of the 2 smaller churches and 2 at the larger and the dynamic changed when one of the priests from one of the smaller churches left and wasn't replaced. The community there felt really left out for a while with no priest on the premises so-to-speak. Things have progressed a lot and each of the 3 communities has it's own "Core Group" feeding into the overall parish council.

teddies - welcome to you! I have a friend that recently went through the discernment and selection process but it seems that particular calling is not for her. Good luck to you in whatever you decide!

Hello all SES I'm at your free time! I had my Mum's group here this morning and am meant to be tidying up the carnage before going to collect DD1 from school. DH is doing English classes in the next village so I have to walk (an hour altogether) but we've had thunder storms this afternoon so not keen! DS and DD2 are currently annoying each other playing and I'm sneaking a break.

I do think it's a hard balancing act for vicars coming into a new church - on the one hand they are called to serve the congregation (who will probably be there long after they have moved on) but also called to lead which can sometimes involve difficult decissions and conflict. I guess it's a 'big helpings of grace all round' type situation (although nickel it sounds like yours was a very bad example).

On a totally different note we're going on holiday next week (yay!) and I am so ready for it (well not in the sense of being organised and packed or anything). Yesterday someone told me that they'd been discussing the colour of my hair with their Mum and wondering if I dye it or not I'm looking forward to being a little bit anonymous for a week .

Oh and welcome teddies!

ses - i think it was his first church, actually. (i'm assuming he did a curacy or something somewhere, though?)

See, this is why the vicar should find a church that fits them, not try to make the church fit!
(like our NSM did - she and her family spent a lot of time finding a church that fitted them as a family (they needed HC ). It's a shame in a way that they couldn't stay with us, but it really wouldn't have worked for them - St Mary's suited them, but St Michael's didn't, and there was always the worry that they would either have tried to change St Michael's to HC or ignored it somewhat. Her DH was our Children's and Families Minister, so they like the child-friendly churches. It would have been nice to have someone like him to go into schools and drum up choristers for the Junior choir, but I don't how that would work out (he certainly didn't do any of that when he was here, so....))

just been thinking

we used to havea music group at our church, and they would perform at some of the sunday services.

see, in Frank's day, the services were split between traditional and modern, alternating week by week.
when we had Choral evensong, the mornign service would be HC, and another service in the month was an "all age service".
in the HC/modern services, the Music Group would play and sing, (there would still be an organ for most of the hymns, unless they were modern worship songs), DH (not DH at the time!) would also have to play the piano for these services. (i think it was the 11am week that was HC and the 9:30 week that was trad)
It carried on like that for a little while after Nick came, but the music group slowly stopped coming to our church, and seemed to drift to St Mary's (i'm not sure of that fact) - the week we had Choral Evensong became a week where the morning service was modern without communion and singing/music group.
(then Nick made the Choral Evensong communion too, and that did bring people in, but when he changed the times so St Mary's had the afternoon service, he stopped communion, and reverted to a normal evening prayer)
while all this was happening, the morning service was then left with no singing group (and no warning of this), DH used to choose the hymns and would leave the singing group to choose their communion/before service pieces.
then they just stopped coming completely - so that sunday was just hymns and organ twidling through communion.
then DH asked if the choir could do that week as well - which was agreed, and that's why we do every week (including the evensong on the same week)

I'm not sure of the timetable of this, all i remember is DH suddenly telling us we were in attendance on that week, and me losing my only lie-in of the month !

I could probably find out for certain by looking over the old music sheets...
anyway, I think it had a lot to do with St Mary's services changes etc etc, and Nick pushing us into being more traditional.

there was a heck of a lot of soul searching among some choir members, too - some wanted to leave (in fact one only stayed because the Archbish came and did a sermon about us all being needed and we should do what we can)
I don't know how our church would have turned out if the choir had disbanded.
It probably wouldn't have been good - only organ every week, no singing group because now they have a service they sing in every week at St Mary's, and noone to organise it if they did.

I still feel like we're hanging on by a thread, though.
I think a lot of people (congregation and outsiders, even the diocese) don't realise how much we've invested in keeping the church up and running - all they see is smaller congregation and less money - I don't think they see the people who have stayed and put their all in (not just musicians, but church wardens and other volunteers) to keep the sinking ship afloat.

So many people left when Nick pissed them off, there are many more who also could have, but didn't.

Hello again
I know, I wanted to say something, but I could tell that English was not her first language, and it wasn't my regular church, there was no actual vicar so I was a bit at a loss. If I go again I might have a word with the churchwarden, who was lovely.
It's hard, isn't it, to accept change. Applies to what Nickel has been sayign about music too. Older people expect different things from children, that "be seen and not heard" mentality abounds in churches. My dc is well-behaved usually, havign been in and around churches since birth, but you can't expect that nowadays. Even more important to make people who don't come often welcome and not make them feel that they aren't wanted. I bet that guy will never go back, after that experience, can't say I blame him.

I have been to see my DDO quite a few times now and am hoping he will send me off to a BAP if the bishop says yes. Just want to get the whole thing going and see if there is any mileage in it, then I can say I have tried, and hopefully the niggle will go away one way or another!

Thats brilliant Teddies! It doesn't sound like that niggle is going away though :)

I am debating whether to contact our priest-to-be, or whether that should be coming from the PCC or churchwardens. She's due to be licensed end of July, but I'd like to say "welcome". I've also volunteered to assist with the putting together of an order of service for the licensing, so there are practical details to be discussed too. Would it be out of order to just send her a friendly email, saying "welcome"?

As for noise in church, our church is a lot more tolerant of noise now, and it shows in the number of families we have, which I think is excellent for a rural church. DS (9) has been a groundbreaker on this, as he's one of the noisiest . Am at anyone who doesn't make children welcome!

Morning

Mary I don't think that would be at all out of order, I think she would appreciate a welcome email, it is hard going to a new post and the more friendliness the better imo, also as you say you are helping with the licensing so need to start contact to be able to talk that through. The PCC/wartdens can contact her too, shouldn't be a problem I don't think (but don't quote me )

teddies - great! Have you started looking into colleges? I can recommend the one in the East Midlands

pmsl @ 'wartdens'

contact her anyway, Mary - it doesn't matter if you do it - or even if the churchwardens have already done it - it makes you and the church look friendly and welcoming.
who wouldn't want that? :)

the wording about welcoming children in our Messenger (noone's asked for a copy of the NEW Messenger yet! Roll up! roll up! ), sounded very offputting to me -
(copy and pasted)
"Calling children and youth

You are very welcome to come to St Michael?s Church , and we therefore expect a certain amount of background noise from you. In the church we have provided play bags containing quiet toys for you to play with during the services. Should you however be making a little too much noise then your parents can take you into the Tower Room at the back of the church where you can continue your play. Here they will find the service is relayed so your parents will not miss out on the service themselves. We are always pleased to welcome children to St Mary?s . The ?Saints Alive? service at 5.00pm (tea from 4.15pm) on the second and fourth Sundays of each month are particularly child-friendly with lots of opportunities to take part and percussion instruments to accompany the singing. "

made it sound like we really really did not want children making a noise

I've reworded it to sound more welcoming, I hope! (you'll have to ask for a copy to find out what it says now)