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Original poster

Really moved by reaction of faithful to the Pope.

443 replies

bamboostalks · 17/09/2010 08:29

Realise that there is a huge amount of negativity and vitriol on here atm with regards to the Pope's visit. However mumsnet is for all and there are plenty of Catholics who are pleased to see him here. This is a thread to celebrate this. I was really moved at the reaction of people in Glasgow yesterday. It was so emotional to see the babies hepd up for his blessing, he really did radiate a serene presence. Love his message as well, it is time to be proud to be a Christian. Hope all those going to see him have a fantastic time.

OP posts:
onagar · 23/09/2010 18:59

You mean 'thou shalt not kill' was just a suggestion?

Where's that list of people I despise?

POFAKKEDDthechair · 23/09/2010 19:01

Er, the King James bible was around 1611, IIRC. So all those translations came after that. Yes, they all say the same thing and assume the same translation. THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT HAS bEEN TRANSLATED CORRECTLY FROM THE ORIGINAL HEBREW WITH AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE CULTURAL ENVIRONMENT OF THE TIME.

ZephirineDrouhin · 23/09/2010 19:05

I mean, onagar, that each book is a product of its culture, a fact that is, amazingly, known to many Christians as well as everyone else. Except you apparently.

onagar · 23/09/2010 19:11

Zephirine, I know what it is. It's a collection of totally unrelated manuscripts cobbled together. It's as though I took a couple of autobigraphies, a recipe book, the A-Z of Birmingham and 4 mills and boon novels and called it the Third Testament.

There is a short history of the Israelites in there (at least partly fictional) along with a list of their by-laws. Some genealogies, Some poetry, some fanciful stuff about creating the world that most christians have abandoned now as too silly to take seriously. There's a love story or two. (I thought it was sweet the way that guy had his employees help out Ruth without her knowing didn't you?). It's a whole mix of stuff.

What is isn't is a message from God. Many christians have pulled back from claiming that it is since atheists started asking them to justify the worst bits. It isn't even a book. Just what was lying around at the time.

onagar · 23/09/2010 19:15

POFAKKEDDthechair, I'm so surprised by your surprise. Did you really not know about this before today? Everyone else did you know. :o

Find some more translations if you like. I don't mind either way because if you find one that translates it as "Any man that lies with another man must be given a nice cake" then the church will have to drop the homophobia and buy shares in Greggs.

daftpunk · 23/09/2010 19:16

So what's the 2010 take on homosexuality then?

I know we tolerate homosexuals and wish them no harm, but can you link me something where the catholic church says homosexuality is completely ok.

FreddoBaggyMac · 23/09/2010 19:20

Onagar, firstly Jesus did not "change the rules" - he merely emphasised that love was important above all else, a fact which I think had been forgotten amidst all the rules and regulations laid out previously.

The Catholic Church does not have a "distate for gay people" as you mention. It says that any act intended to cause sexual arrousal is wrong unless it is followed through by sexual intercourse between the couple, who must be a married husband and wife. That, it can be argued, makes life harder for gay people, but it does not mean the church has a "distaste" for them any more than it does for anyone else who does things that are against its teachings, ie. every one of us!

The current teachings of the church have absolutely nothing to do with your bible quote imo.

ZephirineDrouhin · 23/09/2010 19:21

Onagar, "many Christians" have not "pulled back" "since atheists started asking them to justify the worst bits". "Many Christians" have been well aware of the various cultural contexts of the books of the bible for hundreds of years. There is nothing new about. You are, for whatever reason of your own, simply choosing to attack the views of the most fundamentalist/least educated Christians, and claim that they represent Christianity as a whole.

POFAKKEDDthechair · 23/09/2010 19:23

It is all out there onager, you know, in books and stuff, you can actually go and read all about it yourself. But maybe better just to go on spouting the same old crap. Homphobic christians do the same thing [yes know you're not homophobic but you have more in common with them than you may think]

FreddoBaggyMac · 23/09/2010 19:25

To be honest I can say that I feel pretty serious about my Catholic faith yet the OT has very little relevance for me (it is interesting mainly in the way that history is interesting!) I think it was written for its time and there is enough in the NT and catechism to keep me going for several lifetimes of thinking... just my opinion.

POFAKKEDDthechair · 23/09/2010 19:25

Of course the catholic church doesn't say homosexuality is ok. Although funnily enough they are quite happy to eat shellfish and anything with hooves and to wear cloth blended from two materials or more. Nothing to do with the fact that there is so much repressed homosexuality in the Catholic church you could light a fair few candles just standing in the downstream.

daftpunk · 23/09/2010 19:32

So if I go out tonight and have sex with a woman I have sinned?

Yes, of course I have.

You can debate this all you like, homosexuality was sin 1000's of years ago, and it's a sin today. Nothing much has changed.

ZephirineDrouhin · 23/09/2010 19:33

Yes there seems to be a fairly clear moral evolution between the OT and NT.

And yes suspect Po right about Catholic Church

wisteriawoman · 23/09/2010 19:34

I'm just going to wander in to this chat and say

  1. Yes I was really moved by the Pope's visit - as a lapsed Catholic it's made me really interested in my faith again. I have heaps of questions which I'd like to post - anyone interested in answering them?
  1. There are many Catholic gays. For instance -Google "Father Mychal Judge" who was a Catholic priest, gay, recovering alcoholic who was killed in 9/11 attacks. He was a great / inspiring person. My favourite quote from him is: "If no one told you today they love you,, let me tell you: I love you, and no matter what mess you're in, you're always held and loved by God."
  1. If you want interesting / intelligent discussion on all things Catholic I've just found the National Catholic Reporter website (US based). Worth looking at. Thought provoking.

WW

daftpunk · 23/09/2010 19:37

Repressed homosexuality amongst Catholics is a complete myth.

POFAKKEDDthechair · 23/09/2010 19:38

No, dp. You sin every time you are bigoted, racist, disablist. That is what Christ actually TAUGHT. And he didn't mention homosexuality once.

POFAKKEDDthechair · 23/09/2010 19:39
onagar · 23/09/2010 19:41

Right.. I see Zephirine. They were going to stop saying it was the word of god long before it started getting so embarrassing. :o

Freddo,Usually it is said that the act must include the possibility of pregnancy because that is the only purpose of sex. (Hear that? it's the sound of all the infertile people being dragged to hell for having sex with their wives)

I think including homosexuals in that is a cover for the real reasons to be honest. Scrabbling around for an excuse to hate them that will get past modern laws of equality and fair treatment.

Something to be thinking about though. If that is the reason than it's a rule broken even by married people quite often, I mean even not counting the rhythm method of contraception used widely by catholics. So it can't be a terribly serious crime can it? Yet it is treated as one isn't it.

ZephirineDrouhin · 23/09/2010 19:45

Oh onagar, it's painful it really is.

onagar · 23/09/2010 19:55

POFAKKEDDthechair

:o You were the one who went to pieces over hearing that the bible said that. Perhaps you should consider a little more study before proceeding to avoid more such surprises. Had you not actually read the bible then? I don't think the Children's book of bible stories actually counts for this purpose.

I notice you haven't found a translation yet that doesn't have it, but in any case you surely should have known that all modern translations say essentially the same thing. Even Freddo agrees that the bible says that and you can bet that ZephirineDrouhin who is more of a scholar than either of us would have leapt in had it been incorrect.

daftpunk · 23/09/2010 19:55

Po; this is 2010, do you really think a catholic who had all consuming homosexual thoughts would live a life of sexual pain and suffering? As someone just said, there are 1000's of gay Catholics. You talk like we're in the middle ages.

FreddoBaggyMac · 23/09/2010 19:59

Onagar, yes, the church teaches that you should be open to the creation of a new life when you have sex. If an infertile couple are open to that possibility (no matter how improbable) then yes, sex between them is fine by the church. The difference is that homosexuals cannot have sexual intercourse in the most literal sense where as infertile couples can. It might seem like a stupid detail, but the church says that male and female bodies were made by god in the way they were made for a reason, and using them in other ways than god intended is a sin.

YES that rule is broken by loads of people a lot. That does not mean it is not "serious" though, I'm no judge over which sins are more serious than other ones... as a Christian the aim is supposed to be not to sin at all, seriously or not!!

I can only say to you that as a Catholic who is very sincere about my faith (it is central to my life) I can truly say that I have absolutely NO "hatred" towards homosexuals....

ZephirineDrouhin · 23/09/2010 20:02

What nonsense, onagar, and Po is certainly far more of a scholar than me.

In any case I only came on here because I was sick of all the pope adoration and talk of the church educating 1 in 10 children* or whatever it was. But if there's one thing I hate more than an unthinking religious zealot it's an unthinking atheist zealot.

*they don't of course - the state pays to educate them, the church just gets to choose which children to let in.

POFAKKEDDthechair · 23/09/2010 20:02

went to pieces? Er, was just trying to explain something to you that you refuse to understand. It is fine. Refuse to understand it. Look, if you wanted to have a serious theological debate I would do the time and the hours and have it with you, but you don't, you just want a slanging match where you repeat the same thing over and over and ignore any other argument. The argument is not mine, it is all there in theological writing for you should you choose to look at it.

Dp, you're hilarious.

FreddoBaggyMac · 23/09/2010 20:04

Wisteriawoman Father Mychal Judge sounds great, will def look him up. That's exactly the sort of person the church needs as one of its heroes to move things on in this debate imo. It's such a shame that all the decent catholic journalism is US based, I wish we had something over here! I'd be interested in answering any questions you post, but don't rely too much on my answers as I can only tell you what I think.

It's great that the Pope's visit has brought your faith alive again - the Bene-bounce effect Wink