Really moved by reaction of faithful to the Pope.

[bamboostalks]

Realise that there is a huge amount of negativity and vitriol on here atm with regards to the Pope's visit. However mumsnet is for all and there are plenty of Catholics who are pleased to see him here. This is a thread to celebrate this. I was really moved at the reaction of people in Glasgow yesterday. It was so emotional to see the babies hepd up for his blessing, he really did radiate a serene presence. Love his message as well, it is time to be proud to be a Christian. Hope all those going to see him have a fantastic time.

The church is its flock. The Catholic church owes its success to taking into account local customs and faiths (eg. the saint thing helped it with regards to polytheistic communities and celebacy has never been universal in the church, no matter what they say). Change in the church comes about from the ground up (look at how long it took to have mass celebrated with the priest facing congregation and in the language of the people)!

Maybe it is your priest. Maybe it is that your beliefs are so different. Maybe your experience has been so damaging. If these are so insurmountable at the minute then walk away. You can come back any time or you may decide never to come. The choice is yours and (taking everything into consideration) you should be happy with your choice.

Maybe it is just the timing is wrong. Leave it. It's not a matter of life or death and you have the rest of your life to decide.

i don't have the rest of my kids' life to decide, though, not if i want them to grow up in that community. see my problem? if it was me i would stick with what i do currently, which is go as and when to a polish church that i like.

OK, gonna get a preachy here. When I was younger I had a conversation with a member of my family about the other members of my family and here's what he said "your soul is the only thing that is yours. You can't share it and no one can influence it. It belongs to you and God and only you two can do anything about it". If you are worried about your kids souls don't. They'll find their own way, regardless of their current involvement in religion. If it is Christian ethos and community involvement you are after, you could try scouts. There are many ways up the mountain but ultimately the destination is the same. BTW when I challenged a priest in school about differing faiths he more or less said the same thing.

I think that this is about you and what you believe and how comfortable you are with it. If you can make peace with who you are and what you believe then you will be the best example for them and 1 hour at mass a week will not make a difference.

preachy bit again Read your gospels. Learn about the history of the church (the Irish church was creditted with spreading Christianity throughout Europe in the 5th and 6th centuries but didn't inforce celebacy in priests until the Norman invasion, priests have died for what is right throughout the 20th century opposing the hierarchy's line regarding Germany and South/Central America). Get your faith sorted in your own head before you turn to religion and you'll be fine. You'll be fine anyway cos you've always got the "deathbed confession" {grin}.

As well as the historical reasons (up to recently most Christian denominations were opposed to gay marriage, and even now the Catholic Church is not alone in its opposition), the Catholic also church won't let gay people marry in the church and opposes it in wider society because it can never in anyone's wildest dreams result in the conception of a child.

I would go to the Polish church that you like and let your children have the experience of going to Mass if that is where you feel drawn and you think your children need that experience. What Dione says is very true though -- you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. And the 'drinking' part is out of your hands really. Wrt individual priests, the Catholic Church has outlived many priests, bishops, Popes; parishes and congregations have survived many a disastrous priest (my own parish had a very detached alcoholic at the helm for a number of years but came roaring back a few years ago after he retired). The Catholic religious experience is very much what you choose to make it for yourself and your family.

Really great advice here from Dione and mathanxiety.

PO Would it have been in the Hebrew though? Wouldn't it have been translated from Aramaic into Greek? Like the reminder though. Not enough feminine descriptions by a long long shot.

well yes, but it is family that is also the concern. my children have many close family members who are gay, and it offends me (and would no doubt offend my children in time) that they are seen as sinful people. it also offends me that many catholics take what there is in the teachings and translate that effortlessly into hateful homophobia.

now it's all very well saying 'challenge that', but i don't actually think is it going to change, for the reason that mathanxiety just outlined although i personally think that they are bogus in the extreme, because it's just a double-bind. you can do whatever you like when you are married but we won't marry you... it's just wrong. also i can't with this particular priest, not can i with the polish one and let's be honest, i do understand why the church feels this way, i just wholeheartedly am disgusted by the fact that it does - especially as i know what goes on in seminary etc, havign known quite a few 'lapsed' seminarians at uni, some of whom went back to be priests after being some of the most sexually active, if utterly tormented, men i knew.)

so while it is, as i said a long long time ago on this thread, a very consistent religion where one thing follows logically from the other, i just can't see how i can ignore the basic tenet that homosexual behaviour is wrong. and with that, you see, they lose me and my family from the church, because i cannot fudge that one.

so it's not really preaching that i need, because my faith is as my own faith is - i cannot ignore the gay phobia that is felt by the church and, again let us be honest, by those parishioners who choose not to engage their conscience on the matter and prefer to live in judgement of others (and there are many). so that excludes me from the church, i fear, and if anything the reason i like the polish chapel is precisely because i cannot understand what is being said.

the problem is that by being excluded from the church because of the homophobia (while retaining all the good things i have got out of being educated as a catholic) i now exclude my daughters. i haven't sent them to a catholic school, although i have sent them to an unusually christian non-denom school, the way it has worked out, but i would like them to have some understanding of my background and what faith i have, and to participate in the community.

and tbh while you all may think whatever you think about dp etc, it really does sicken me to the core that people will use catholicism to support hatred, and seeing particular threads on here has put me off going back to church formally, strangely more than the child abuse scandals and the recent bad press. i can see that the church is its people, not the vatican, it is therefore very worrying to see what some of the people are actually thinking behind their prayers... i just don't really want my kids in contact with that. but they will miss out on so much else.

This really is going to be my last posting on this thread Dione, Mathanxiety etc... are doing a far better job of expressing themselves than me!

Just had to say, ZephirineDrouhin I do not understand exactly how my postings have convinced you not to return to church... I don't think I've said anything really different or new about the catholic religion... but I certainly wouldn't rely on what I've said to make such a decision. If you have been seriously contemplating whether the catholic church is for you or not i would think the best thing to do would be to read the catechism for yourself and perhaps discuss some of the points you struggle with with a priest. Please do not blame postings from people who are complete strangers to you on an internet forum on your decision not to return to church...

I recorder that BBC2 program on Monday and watched it last night - I thought it was excellent. Archbishop Nichols made some fantastic points, one interesting one was that the Catholic church does see a place for civil partnerships between homosexual couples. that program gave quite a balanced commentary I thought, and the news coverage of the visit on the whole has been great.

Aitch, I can see that you are someone who is very sincerely searching for the truth and for something you can say you believe in wholeheartedly and unreservedly and I think that is admirable in anyone. I don't think you need much advice as you're obviuosly doing a pretty good job of seeking things out for yourself, but my own belief is that in this life at least we will never have all the answers. Like you, I cannot just 'trust' that the church is right when it comes to important issues, and I certainly find the teachings on homosexuality the most difficult. I hope and pray that you find a good priest who you can talk to about it all. I'd recommend http://www.youth2000.ie/ youth 2000 events as a good starting point for meeting some really great priests who will be willing to debate with you if you're interested, and also a good way of introducing your children to what it means to be Catholic. Good luck, and you will be in my prayers.

oops sorry here is that link done right... and I meant 'recorded' the BBC prog obviously, my typing goes all askew when I'm talking about things I'm passionate about

Sorry I think that's the link to Youth 2000 Ireland.. I really am not doing well today! The English one in www.youth2000.org, here - hopefully anyway! the website doesn't seem to be working that well at the moment. Now I really really really am going to go and spend the day with neglected DS2!!

Ime, lapsed Catholics only start 'finding themselves' again when they have children at, or around school age.

The words; 'coincidence' 'catholic schools are better' And 'bullshit' Always spring to mind.

fuck off, dp.

and thanks, freddo, i appreciate that.

I was worried about the Pope coming and as a catholic, I do have issues with some of the catholic doctrines such as priests not being married, contraception, child abuse (not a doctrine just a by-product) and anti-homosexuality. My sister is gay and I think she is one of the most caring people I have ever made, which to me is more important than a straight, selfish person.

However, I was moved by his visit and it did reaffirm to me that sometimes it is worth remembering some of the good values of any religion. Some of the shared values of christianity and Islam are so worth promoting such as peace to all peoples, caring for the poor, respecting spirituality etc. These are some of the messages that came out of his visit and let us not forget that catholism also gave us Mother Teresa who helped so many people and educates 25% of the third world plus provides most of the hospitals. It is not all bad and surely anyone can see that there is a balance.

Whether you like the Pope and his views or not, it is nice for a non-materialistic message to be spread for a change. At the end of the day, the more materialistic you are the less likely you are to be happy.

I cannot leave it alone, i am officially a mumsnet addict... but I've just remembered that I wanted to respond to Dollius' point:

"And yet you ally yourself to a religion that does think it is acceptable to preach about how other people express love towards one another, Freddo?
I'm sorry, but I cannot understand that."

The Church teaches about every aspect of life Dollius, not just how people express their love, and I do try my best to follow the teachings relevant to my own life (often failing miserably). The issues on homosexuality have not so far been relevant to my own life. I have thought long and hard about them and can say that on the whole I agree with them - but on the other hand I am not a homosexual having to put up with their consequences in my life which I realise muct be extremely and totally difficult. I'd also say that if people don't want a religion that tells them how they should live their lives then catholicism is perhaps not for them.

Now I am promising myself NOT to type anymore... I do think these discussions are so worthwhile it's just that they take over my life completely when I participate in them and I can honsestly say the biggest sin i should be worrying about at the moment is neglecting my children in favour of the computer!

I agree FBM, if you don't agree with a religions fundamental teachings, then you're better off out of it. The catholic church will only go so far, it's certainly not going to change it's position on homosexuality.

The issue of homosexuality is a strange one because most religions seem to be opposed to the act but arch christians seem to be opposed to leanings towards homosexuality.

Sorry to be blunt to some of the more leaned christians on here but is it just buggery that is considered a sin? Therefore two women in a long-term relationship would never actually do that and therefore would not be committing a sin but two men would. It confuses me totally and I am not sure whether the situation resolves more from cultural issues or bibal teachings.

There are some catholic priests who may have homosexual feelings but remain celebate and therefore comply with their religion.

freddo i'm inclined to think that you might find the church's position on homosexuality a great deal less tolerable were it the case that your close family members and most beloved aunts and uncles of your children were gay. kids know good people, they don't discriminate. (unless they are taught to, of course).

and wrt catholicism, i AM a catholic, as were my parents and grandparents before me, please no-one tell me that i should look elsewhere for a faith because my own culture and religion is not tolerant enough. i was baptised, it's a done deal, i am a catholic and that is that.

my grandparents' church would be unrecognisable to me and vice versa, so things do change. i resent being excluded from my own church because i am not sufficiently hypocritical to pretend to attend in good conscience. however, being a racist, homophobic, disablist member of the bnp is no barrier to attending church, evidently, and this is a tremendous worry imo.

Aitch - you've drawn me back I can say for sure that my position on homosexuality would not change in those circumstances simply because I have had that experience, that is why I struggle so much with it. I love and respect that person more than I can possibly tell you, but I still believe in the church's teaching... and i didn't mean that you should look elsewhere for your faith, but I think anyone who thinks faith should not have an impact on how we live our lives should. You obviously feel the opposite of that!

The catholic church will never change it's views on homosexuality, you are going to be in constant turmoil and that will be counterproductive. Except that the Catholic church is not progressive enough for you and move on. Become CofE or something.

Aitch I agree with you totally.

I have been raised a catholic and I like parts of it. I teach tolerance to my children as well and they have grown up to love a person, gay or not. I believe they will grow up to be less homophobic because they have grown up with it. My DH' nephew has also just come out of the closet. It was a big deal for his father who has no religion, whereas my own father (born and raised catholic) adjusted to my sister better.

Some of the most homophobic people I have met are not religious at all and I think that is more down to being intolerant of anyone different to themselves.

I do not want to stop going to Church because of this issue and believe that most other religions would share similar views.

Just watch Bruno to find some of the more hardcore religious people in the States to be very anti.

It is a dilemma for me.

gotcha. it's hard, isn't it? my family members have asked outright how i can consider taking their nieces to a church that will not marry them or have them express their love physically. and i couldn't answer at all. how have you spoken of your feelings to your friend/relative?

that last to freddo. stop telling me to change my church, dp, i am perfectly clear that i don't want to. as clear as you are that you want to stay supporting the british national party. hth.

fsmail, it is all those good things that i don't want my children to miss out on, i think there is much to recommend our faith, actually not least being made to THINK about stuff other than hannah montana from an early age, iykwim?

To be honest, I have not really discussed it with my sister. She is still catholic in name and would go to church for the family if it was Christmas or a wedding as that it the type of person she is.

I will raise it with her.

I have sent my kids to a catholic school and have now been questionning the secondary school option. my DH is not religious and so I would not say they will be indoctrinated as we have taught them to be free-thinkers but surprisingly it is my DH who is keener on the catholic secondary because he has liked being part of the primary.

Very tricky

Aitch, the person I'm speaking of is actually dead now and I'm pretty sure in heaven. Tbh I cannot go into it on here as it is something which is too close to my heart to discuss somewhere where it might be held up for ridicule (although I'm sure not by you!) If I could speak to him it would not be in judgement, he was a far better person than I will ever be.

Fsmail to answer your 11.29 question (!) any kind of sexual activity that does not lead to intercourse between a husband and wife is technically considered a sin. So if you are really hardcore you could even say that a husband and wife kissing each other passionately with the intention of arousing each other and not 'completing the act' (!) is a sin. So yes, homo 'sexual' acts between teo women would be considered in the same way as acts between two men.

i'm sure he is too, freddo.

What I would like to see as a step forward is this: perhaps if science could prove beyond a doubt that there is some 'physical' aspect of being gay, ie. that people are born that way. Then the church might be more forthcoming in acknowledging that some Priests/ saints etc were homosexual. These people could then show that it is possible to be homosexual and try to live according to catholic teaching, and live fulfilled lives. After all there is obviously more to life than just sex (although sometimes I think modern society tells us differently!) Others may not agree, but that is the only way I think that things can move forward.