Really moved by reaction of faithful to the Pope.

[bamboostalks]

Realise that there is a huge amount of negativity and vitriol on here atm with regards to the Pope's visit. However mumsnet is for all and there are plenty of Catholics who are pleased to see him here. This is a thread to celebrate this. I was really moved at the reaction of people in Glasgow yesterday. It was so emotional to see the babies hepd up for his blessing, he really did radiate a serene presence. Love his message as well, it is time to be proud to be a Christian. Hope all those going to see him have a fantastic time.

yes, but as heterosexuals we are not committing a sin by expressing physical love for one another.

would a priest therefore have a position on anal sex between heterosexual married parishioners? i'm sure that the bumsexer thread would be very interested to know what that is.

Mathx;FBM.....give up, your well thought out and informative posts are wasted on some people.

Aitch. I don't really know why you're on this thread, as all you've done is patronise and moan about everything. You clearly have very little time for Catholics.

And just going on what I've seen on MN, You're one of the most unchristian people I've ever met.

Aitch Mon 20-Sep-10 16:14:58

BINGO!

i hope you are paying attention, freddo.

and it was a serious question, really, about the anal sex. i get that homosexual sex can't create life, and i think i see that having sex not to create life is okay within marriage (although it's a bit of a catch-22 type fudge, so to speak), but i am curious to know if ultra-non-creative sex, ie anal sex, where an accident really cannot take place, has been dealt with anywhere in the church's teachings.

Oh ffs aitch, just admit you're on this thread to take the piss. Do you really think the church gives much thought to anal sex between heterosexuals? Would you seriously put your question to a priest?

You know you wouldn't.

i really would like to know if there is an answer to this, math and freddo, and i think that if you read my posts on this thread you will acknowledge that the question is sincere and that my (albeit currently conflicted) catholicism is without question. and for the record of COURSE i would ask a priest, if i had one at the moment, but i don't, and we are discussing it here, so i am asking you.

Not sure I'm qualified enough to be your stand in priest, but I'll answer you.

Non creative sex is fine between married heterosexuals. Oral sex is extremely popular, and all other forms of non creative sex are fine within a loving committed relationship. (providing you are both happy with it)

Sometimes, married people may even have sex on their own.

i'd rather have an answer from freddo and math, as you know, dp. so if you could stop goading me, that would be fantastic.

Fair enough.

But before we go back to ignoring each other, I'd like to remind you that not all homosexual men engage in anal sex. Also, in relationships where they do, there are "givers" and "receivers" ....it's a lot more complicated than you think.

No, dp, you are one of the most unchristian people ever to set virtual foot in MN. Ever.

thank you for highly salacious reminder. i was talking about heterosexual couples, but if you like i can add this element to my question and enquire further if it is more or less sinful to bugger or to be buggered.

of course she is, po, that's the real offence here. clearly math and freddo et al are sincere believers, who struggle and question and make their peace with their beliefs. i need not agree with them to see their christianity. whereas dp just uses her religion as ballast for her racist, homophobic and disablist viewpoints. she makes me thoroughly ashamed to call myself a catholic, tbh. more than that, she herself is one of the reasons why i am finding it difficult to decide on whether or not to return to the church with my children.

Aitch, if you are finding it difficult to decide whether or not to return to the church then you need to ask yourself:
What is my reason for returning to the church? If you are happy with the answer then I suggest you just give it a go and see how you feel. Your reasons and faith are unique to you and only you can decide.

If you go and still feel torn, then at least you will be familiar with the priests and will be more at ease discussing your issues with them. If you are still unsatisfied and think that it is not for you then just stop going, no one's going to force you to do anything you don't want to. Good Luck.

it's more to do with the kids than me, tbh. i know what i am, a conflicted catholic who HAS to pick and mix in order to live with myself. i worry about my daughters, though, i don't really want them exposed to hateful ideas that i don't actually believe in myself, however i do want them to have a religious culture in their lives. we have sent them to non-denom schooling, so the decision to take them to mass every sunday and get involved in the local parish is a bigger one than you might think. i have also looked at other branches of christianity, because i have met the people and they are good and kind (and interesting to debate with). but then i worry that this just adds another complication to the mix.

i know what the church is not the vatican, but i think that these recent issues and the fact that they have been so badly dealt with by the men at the top have shaken people like me more than you know. thanks for the good luck, though, i appreciate it.

so yes, sorry, the reason i would be returning is because i don't want my children to be brought up with an absence of religion, iyswim?

You get so personal aitch, that's the unchristian part of you, not just personal, but hateful almost. Way beyond what I would consider normal for an Internet relationship. I could type out a 5000 word reply to you, but it would fall on deaf ears. Your accusations are wrong and completely untrue, but you just won't let go.

The catholic church has within it people who have committed murder, drug dealers, wife beaters, you name it....all are now out of prison and are reformed characters. God gives everyone another chance. He knows we are weak and commit sin.

You have trouble forgetting about a few threads on mumsnet. If I was you, I'd stay away from the church.

I would love to think that the pope's visit has enabled even one more person to return to the church. It is a broad church and there are many rooms in my father's house.

Does he run a b&b at all?

Er, God is both male and female in the original Hebrew Bamboostalks, the Holy Spirit being referred to in the feminine. so that would have to be 'in my mother and father's house'. Actually.

I actually think DP answered the question about anal sex in heterosexual relationships. The idea that an accident wouldn't or couldn't take place is one a good few priests would probably weigh if someone tried talking to them about this, as would the idea that condoms are 100% failsafe in heterosexual relationships. Maybe not all priests though. However, I don't think many Catholics would go and talk this over with their priest in the first place.

As far as returning to the Church, I would see every aspect of anyone's life whether in or out of any church as ultimately a part of a continuous spiritual journey, and hope to never meet anyone who thinks they have 'arrived'.

I can only speak of my own experience, but I have never heard hate preached at mass. You call your self 'conflicted' and say that you have to pick and mix in order to live with yourself. I suppose some might call me a pick and mix Catholic, (given the contraception and divorce) but I do not see that. That is because of my upbringing. My parents, extended family and catholic education taught me that dissent is nothing to be ashamed of (indeed Christianity came about as a result of challenging organised religion). I am a member of the catholic community and if they really wanted they could excommunicate me, but they don't. Nor do they make me feel inferior or other. I am accepted for who I am.

If you are worried about what your children will be told in mass will fundamentally conflict with the values you wish to teach them then go to mass on your own for a while and see what you think. I don't think that any religion will completely comply with your personal values and beliefs, but that is the same with any organisation, it is up to you how you reconcile that with your faith.

so if the sexual acts that cannot result in a child, say anal sex and oral sex are okay amongst married couples, then it's only the fact that the catholic church won't let gay people marry that is the barrier? this seems unjustifiably unfair, surely?

and dionne, that is your experience, but it wasn't mine, and is one of the reasons why i stopped going to mass, and the priest is in the parish here. a kind man in many respects, mealy-mouthed in public about other religions and sexualities but when all's said and done, a good old-fashioned bigot. i don't want to go outwith my local parish as it's the community that is appealing as much as anything else, so i am stuck for the moment.

sorry, dione, not dionne.

Re. your post on homosexuality/non productive sex and sex before marriage. Such viewpoints predate Christianity and Judaism and most likely have their origins in the advent of aggriculture when lineage and descendants became very important for defending and keeping land within the family. They are still very important in cultures in the developing world. Given that many catholics live in the developing world in order for the church to do what we in the West want them to do they would alienate the majority of their followers.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience and it is only natural that it will have an effect on your future decisions. As I said, try mass on your own before you introduce your DC's. If what your priest says there is acceptable perhaps you will give it a go. Remember just cos you go to church doesn't mean you have to have the priest over for tea and doesn't mean you can't challenge him. I have (in my time) challenged many priests in the confession box. Over what I believe btw, not in an 'ooh, er, missus' type way.

as have i, but this guy is just too old to challenge tbh, and any other priests that come into the parish are very temporary.

re the sex thing... the church should be prepared to alienate its flock over what is right.