Cesar Milan On Radio 2 - do something...!

[smartmars]

Steve Wright is featuring him on his show this week. It probably won't change but it would be good if Steve Wright gets to hear some opinions on how the public feel about this man's techniques and theories. I emailed him from the contacts page and told him what an 'anti CM' feel there is among professional trainers, behaviourists and academics. Come on all you professionals and dog lovers out there...

Poor Minimu - you're always the epitome of calm professionalism on here. Never seen you so upset.

You're right though - that is what's so scary. It's people thinking their dogs are being dominant and that they would benefit from Cesar's techniques. I've read on other forums about dogs being put down because of behavioural issues caused by Cesar's techniques

Bella, I'm interested in any forums where I can read about dogs, dog behaviour issues and all related terminology. Can you point me towards any forums in particular? The "terminology" bit is for work reasons.

Bella you know me always trying to be calm assertive at all times!

I just watched a fairly new programme with CM & the LCA (last Chance for Animals) about "puppy mills"

The Humane Society of America was also involved in the programme.

The anti-Cesar brigade should watch it - you would be astounded at how gentle he is.

Am sure he can be very gentle when required.

Am also certain that, with a huge commercial enterprise to protect (cesar apps for your iPhone ffs) he and his PR people are only too aware of how much damage has already been done to his reputation. Cue lots of Cuddly Cesar moments.

Ponders please dont take this personally but this clip shows a terrifed dog that is being forced to do something it is terrified off.

Ok your phobia is water I restrain you so you can not get away and force you into the water. The next time you come to water what is your reaction?

If this dog was clicker trained to go to the ramp it may take a bit longer but you would see a dog off a lead able to go away if it wanted to, wagging its tail and gaining confidence with the ramp. When the dog was happy it would walk up the ramp tail wagging.

Next time the clicker trained dog sees the ramp it will run up happy and relaxed. I will hunt for a clip or work out how to put my training videos on here for you to see the difference.

Bolshy - not sure forums are best for terminology tbh - you need books dear, books!
What kind of work do you do?

Ooo minimu please let us see your videos!

If you can't come up to Manchester to personally train my 14 week old puppy, I'll gladly settle for your online services Please!

i think CM tends to be 'gentle' with small dogs, but when you see him with medium sized dogs + i feel its a totally different story.

I don't like him and wouldn't want him anywhere near my two lads.

A link to show not a frightned dog couldn't find one but a mule that is frightened of its stall.

You will see it is on a loose lead at all times and can back away if it wants to. It is a bit boring to watch as the mule is not being pressured at all but the mule is happy and works at his pace.

clickertraining.tv/product.html?item=FREE-08

No pushing or lifting or forcing the animal at all. I know I would rather be this horse than CM dog on the ramp.

minimu, I assume the clip shows the Akita on the ramp?

You need to watch the whole programme. There was another Akita which had been lifted by the LCA people onto the pickup, as per their normal procedure, & lay there completely flat looking utterly petrified. Cesar took some time to encourage that one to go into its carrier voluntarily.

He was then trying with the 2nd Akita - in a limited amount of time, as they were filming outside that puppy mill & didn't want to be there all day - to show them what would be a better way, in future, of getting a reluctant, very very nervous dog (institutionalised, never-been-outside-its-cage, being handled by new people, & with no idea of what was coming next) up onto the pickup so it would feel a bit more confident when it got there.

He just can't do right for you lot, can he? You've made up your minds, regardless of the confidence obviously felt in him by these professional dog welfare people who have actually worked with him

Nope he can't do right until he moves to positive training methods

Absolutely.

You should see him with the dog which used to eat its own poo (amongst other things) & had no idea how to have fun...

Hate to think how Cesar would deal with coprophagia tbh

Bella, I'm a translator and for the last year I've been specialising in books about dogs. I've read rather a lot, generally, but very specialised dog-training terminology is quite hard to track down. I'm currently working on an alternative therapy book for dogs, believe it or not. I'm always in the market for pointers to new sources of info, that's all.

He discovered that the dog concerned loved banana & used "positive training methods".

You won't believe that though.

Bolshy - ooh, how interesting. Lucky you - sounds like a good job! En francais, peut-etre? Je parle francais assez bien

The reason I said forums aren't the best place to learn is that people tend not to use technical jargon on them, at least not on the open forums.

A good book to start with is this:

here

but it's such a broad subject with so many theories and methods it's hard to recommend just one.

Am sure Minimu will have some ideas.

Ponders - yes, I believe you. Doesn't take away the fact that he's done the things he's done, and continues to pop up on TV every night terrifying dogs. I could say something about dictators kissing babies, iyswim.

"he's done the things he's done, and continues to pop up on TV every night terrifying dogs"

and how much of this alleged appalling behaviour have you, personally, watched?

Ponders, I am sure you are right and that sometimes he is great and has endless patience.

But does that really matter? Even if he is only cruel/uneccesarily forcefull 10% of the time, that is too much. Especially when people with far less experience and knowledge than him are attempting to copy his techniques.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is, Ponders.

Is it - as Shiny says - that he only does the bad stuff occasionally? So it's okay then?

"Even if he is only cruel/uneccesarily forcefull 10% of the time, that is too much"

I would argue with "cruel/uneccesarily forcefull" any of the time.

He is assertive or dominant (not domineering) some of the time. In all the programmes I've seen (& I bet I've seen a lot more than you) all the dogs involved end up looking relaxed & much happier than they started out.

Well, I would say he is unnecessarily cruel and forceful.

And I would also say that none of the dogs I have seen him work on have ended up looking relaxed or happy.

So we'll disagree.

I've owned and worked with dogs all my life and I know what I see.

Bizarrely, several professional bodies here, in the US and in Italy agree with me.

Soooo.... Did anyone hear it on Steve Wright today? That was the original thread way back, remember?! He was on for about 3 minutes and SW asked him to defend the controversial methods he uses, and mentioned that he had received emails from concerned listeners. CM did quite well of course but it could have been a heap worse. We may have to agree to disagree on this one guys
BTW you can go to podcast and listen again - fast forward to last 15 mins of show

He looked very domineering in that clip Bella posted with the dog in the garage. And that Akita was niether happy or relaxed. It was horrified. So what if CM's way was better than the LCA's way? It was still the wrong way. And possibly more importantly, if I tried either of things on my Akita, he would most probably rip off my arm. Result? The dog would be PTS for trying to defend itself against me.

That is the pont I am trying to make, less experienced people will be tempted to try his techniques with disasterous results.

There are better, kinder ways to train dogs, tahn pinning them to the ground. Which IMO is unncessarily forcefull and cruel.