Cesar Milan On Radio 2 - do something...!

[smartmars]

Steve Wright is featuring him on his show this week. It probably won't change but it would be good if Steve Wright gets to hear some opinions on how the public feel about this man's techniques and theories. I emailed him from the contacts page and told him what an 'anti CM' feel there is among professional trainers, behaviourists and academics. Come on all you professionals and dog lovers out there...

"when an animal is given electric shocks in a cage whatever it does, and cannot avoid them regardless of how it behaves, it stops doing anything"

does CM do this?

Is "learned helpnessness" meant to be a synonym for "calm submission"?

No, sorry, it was a laboratory experiment of times gone by (pre-ethics commitees I should think), need to check reference for you. Bet he would though (joking).
Ponders: not heard the term 'calm submission' is it a made up term coined by the likes of CM, or a scientific one?

Watch this clip of Cesar:

here

This is what Cesar calls 'calm submission' and 'trust'. A behaviourist would call it learned helplessness - the dog is terrified but knows it can't get away so it just flops. I'm pretty sure the dog's tongue looks blue in this clip, but in any case even a lay person can tell by the way it's panting that this poor dog is anything but calm.

Strangely enough, still can't find the widely discussed clip of him kicking the dog in the stomach.

It's his term - in fact he says "calm submissive state" - he says don't interact with the dog at all until it's in one, rather than constantly saying its name, good boy etc & thus "rewarding" it when it's agitated & behaving badly.

It seems to make perfect sense to the people whose dogs he's dealing with on the programme, & in general the dogs also seem a lot happier afterwards.

Thanks Bella, horrific. I just don't need to see it (turned off half way through). Its good for people to see this sort of thing though (just not me!). Trust? Calm? FFS

American psychologist Martin Seligman coined term LH in 1960's. It has been researched quite a lot looking at depression in humans

Have you watched clip Ponders? What do you think? Bearing in mind the type of dog too (sensitive, reactive type). Be great to see the owners and dogs further down the line I think, to see if he actually has helped. TV is not really a true picture, it's entertainment after all, not public service (I know having been involved in a documentary where I worked). Never again!

Just out of interest are there any other dog behaviour experts who would suggest alternative and effective ways of dealing with such a terrifyingly aggresive dog?

How exactly do you deal with a dog like this and ensure a change in its behaviour?

I have looked at the dog listener who seems to suggest very gentle ways but if I followed her ideas I would spend most of the day ignoring my dog!

Yes, I did watch it, smartmars - I would like to see an update too - the programme generally provides but one but whoever loaded that clip up hasn't done

A lot of the dogs he deals with appear to be terribly highly-strung & anxious at the start, and generally they really do relax after a while.

Dog listener? Pah! Dog ignorer. People who you know from TV/well publisiced books are people with good PR support. Good people are behind the scenes getting on with it. They are members of professional bodies (APBC in this country), have loads of practical experience, a relevent science degree and take refferals from vets. They asertain the reason for a behaviour then address the cause. Trying to treat aggresion with aggresion is only going to create one thing....
Aggression is nearly, almost entirley, like in just about all cases I've seen, based in fear. Think about how abusing a fearful dog will make it feel. A good behaviourist would deal with why the dog is fearful. 'scuse spelling

"You serious? "

Yes, smartmars, I was being serious. I realised from reading this thread from the start that it would be a contentious issue, so I was very careful about how I phrased my response.

"Wish I lived on your planet."

That's not a remark which engenders debate. Nor is your subsequent comments about a practice that, from all the episodes I've watched, CM has never employed and, more importantly, wouldn't.

From the clip that Bella posted, what I can see is a totally out-of-control dog that ends up exhausted because its behaviour is eventually turned into more acceptable behaviour. The subsequent reaction of the dog is exactly what I'd expect to see whether it's a dog or any other animal who experiences meltdown. But I don't see any cruelty whatsoever to achieve that result.

Its not relaxation. help me out someone [imploring emoticon]

Do they relax though Ponders, or do they end up being so terrified of him they daren't move?

That clip was horrific. Most dogs behave aggressively through fear or insecurity. Imagine someone doing that to you, when you are scared.

Did you read that the dog had been locked in garage for 10 months? Did they not think that maybe it needed love, walks, companionship? Rather than abuse.

I watch CM occassionally and weed out the few tips that are usefull, i.e. ignoring unruly dogs, not letting out first etc. BUt most of his techniques are quite hands on. I could never put my famlily pet through that.

Making your dog scared of you, to get required behavior, imho, is not adressing what is causing the behavior in the first place.

Libby, how on earth can you watch that clip abnd think there is anything good going on?

I guess it really is in the eye of the beholder!

libbygrayhair, I wasn't saying CM would ever do that to a dog, just trying to explain what LH is. Apologies for flippant comments. Point is, CM doesn't work out why a dog behaves as it does then try to help it find a better way using positve reinforcement, desensitisationa and other acceptable forms of behaviour modification. He forces and coerces.

Well I'm wondering, as you all loathe his techniques so much, if you actually watch his programmes?

YOu don't see cruelty Libby? The poor creatures was horrified. Yes it probably gave up in the end, after exhausting itself with struggling. But that is not relaxation. Most battered wives give up fighting after a while. But they are not relaxed are they?

Only working out why they behave as they do, & finding ways of dealing with it using positive reinforcement etc, is exactly what he does 99% of the time

libbygrayhair - this was written by a qualified behaviourist (something Cesar isn't). It addresses most of your points:

here

The dog in the muzzle represents the other 1%, & it was clearly in a very bad way mentally - hence why it would be good to see a follow-up.

You can't, with any intelligence, use that one clip to demonise him!

Ponders - there are lots of clips - most of them have been taken off the National Geographic website. The most notorious ones appear to be with dogs called Shadow and Jonbee, but they have disappeared.

And bear in mind that we're only talking about broadcast scenes here.

When I do watch his programme, I have not once seen a dog he has treated which didn't end up showing fearful body language.

Most of the dogs I've seen on his prog have ended up looking really happy.

How odd.

Ponders, I have watched a lot of them, an awful lot. I have read books of his too... I feel I am fully informed in his techniques, I have watched episodes many times, often because I want to be sure of something I think I have seen rather than getting hysterical about something half imagined (as a lot of people do).

There is a lot of footage out there that show very questionable methods, very questionable results and little or no effort put into any positive reinforcement for any behaviour.

Of course leaving these clips around for people to evidence these cruel questionable methods would be bad practice on the part of a TV company so they make sure the clips dissapear.

Behaviourists and vets, amoungst others, have been lamenting the changes he has made to the lot of the average dog for as long as he has been around. The theory he uses was dissproven many years ago, the techniques he uses shouldn't need dissproving...they are blatent cruelty far too much of the time.

Thanks, smartmars, for your further explanation. But I have to say, I don't see that he uses force and coercion. From what I've seen, he uses techniques to get the dog and the owners onto a better track so they can enjoy each other's company. Force and coercion never works to achieve that.

ShinyAndNew: Of course the dog is exhausted. It wanted to behave in a way that's not acceptable if it is to remain in its home. The reverse-anthropomorphic analogy of battered wives is inappropriate. The objective is a dog that is comfortable and enjoys living in a family environment.

Thanks for the link, Bella, but the comments there haven't yet enlightened me as to why I should see CM's techniques as being bad. There are many reasons why dogs behave the way they do, and many ways to correct that behaviour. I still don't see why people don't understand that, and simply want to write off CM's techniques as being unacceptable.