Cesar Milan On Radio 2 - do something...!

[smartmars]

Steve Wright is featuring him on his show this week. It probably won't change but it would be good if Steve Wright gets to hear some opinions on how the public feel about this man's techniques and theories. I emailed him from the contacts page and told him what an 'anti CM' feel there is among professional trainers, behaviourists and academics. Come on all you professionals and dog lovers out there...

he is about to be on Channel 4

I like him.

I think he did quite well on Channel 4 although could have done with Paul O giving him a little more of a grilling.
The techniques he showed on the show were perfect and if he'd only just stick with that type of stuff.

I agree, Lucky - anyone who had only seen him today would wonder what all the controversy was about.

So which dog traing programme is OK then? And if the wolf pack theory was discredited ages ago, what's the current theory? Links, please, I'm genuinely interested!!

Some info here, Bolshy:

here

Entertaining video here from one of the proponents of positive, reward based training:

Ian Dunbar

Thanks very much, Bella. You don't happen to have the names of any authors who write on this subject, do you? Or any book titles? Just want to make sure that I'm up to speed! I've never subscribed to the dominance theory anyway, but then again I've never found a behaviourist or trainer of any sort that I've completely agreed with

Ooops, x-posts, Bella. Thanks for that!

A really good book to start with is Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. Other good ones are Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, and Bruce Fogle's books.

Anything except Cesar Millan and Jan Fennell basically

Reasons against CM training methods and dominance theories
coape.org/awsn_statement.html

Good modern training methods www.apdt.co.uk/index.asp

Nice links, Minimu

Thanks again, Bella. Hadn't heard of Karen Pryor or Jean Donaldson. I have read some stuff by Bruce Fogle, but I seem to remember him mentioning wolves a lot.

I have read one Jan Fennell book, but I didn't see how her methods were really practicable in a family house and they seemed a bit mad to me.

Thanks for the links, Minimu. My training methods involve huge amounts of sausage or black pudding and praise, so I guess I must be doing OK by modern standards (and I always did think that Barbara Woodhouse was an evil old witch who needed a good choking with her own choke chain).

Sounds like you're doing fine, Bolshy

Haven't read all the posts, absolutely knackered, but thanks smartmars for the heads up. Bella has said it all, the best I can do is pass the info on to all my contacts and ask them to contact the Steve Wright show.

You know - I've been reflecting on all of this and maybe I'm getting soft in my old age but I actually feel a bit of sympathy for Cesar.

Hear me out, folks!

I watched his programme last night and there was a Great Dane who had never had any kind of training and who didn't get walked. You can imagine. Plus the owner thought it was really quite funny to have this horse dog jumping all over him on the sofa, and didn't want the dog to 'lose his character'. So Cesar was expected, within a very short time, to stop the Dane going on the sofa. So of course he did all the standing over him, blocking him - all that stuff. Any sensible owner could stop the dog going on the sofa with positive reinforcement, albeit in a longer time frame.

The dog I linked to earlier in this thread had, I believe, been kept in a basement for 10 months - ffs. So no wonder it was a bit loopy.

Anyway, my point is that it makes great TV to show extreme cases and have Cesar 'cure' them almost instantly, whereas in many of these cases a responsible owner would never have let it get to that stage in the first place. Nobody's going to tune in week after week to see 'teach your dog to sit', 'teach your dog to pee outside' , are they? It's like How Clean is your House - that just ended up being very extreme cases of people who clearly had quite a lot going on other than general untidiness.

So although of course I don't condone the asphyxiation, the kicking etc., I'm prepared to believe that Cesar is somewhat at the mercy of the producers and the dogs they line up for him, and that the producers themselves are motivated by what we like to watch.

So stop watching him!

I thought he came across well on Paul O'Grady, and he didn't profess to be a trainer, rather someone working with last resort (quote) cases who might otherwise be PTS.

But then I half watched his TV prog last night and many of the dogs were wearing those prong collars

But the programme isn't all extreme cases - a lot of them are dogs/owners who have just got stuck in patterns of behaviour they need to get out of.

eg a recent prog had him going to a very dog-friendly company which encourages people to bring their dogs to work. One had a "shy" dog which hid under her desk; one had a pair of tiny dogs, mother & son I think, of which one was inclined run barking at other dogs & the other would join in, so the owner was frightened to bring them in at all; & a third had a dog which had behaved aggressively at work 3 times so was barred from coming in any more. In all 3 cases it was either the dog picking up anxiety from the owner, or the way other people were approaching the dog. They were all very "responsible" owners.

He didn't need physical force to sort them out - nothing more than psychology (human mostly) & dog body language. His tag line is "I rehabilitate dogs. I train people" & he does!

But Ponders - in the cases which aren't extreme, the same results could be achieved without the domineering body language he uses, which in every dog I've seen provokes fear. The Dane last night had its tail so far up between its legs it couldn't physically go any further. Its ears were clamped right back too - or at least as far as it could with surgically cropped ears. Not to mention the choke collar - positioned so high up its neck it was a wonder it could still breathe.

I don't think he does teach the owners anything, except how to intimidate their dog.

I didn't see the prong collars but I only watched the Dane - that was enough for me.

Yes, I've seen some of the non-extreme cases, I think his comment about last resort scenarios was in response to Paul O'G asking whether some of his methods are too aggressive.

cant read the rest of this as Im upset. ~Just started watching that clip. that dog was terrified. It didn't need the treatment it got it needed to be taught gently that a human can be kind and gentle over a period of time.

The best behaved dogs have a look of adoration ion their eyes for their owners not one of fear

I know - it's the fecking owners who want pinning to the ground, tbh

we've been having to work slowly on our rescue dog as she thinks shes going to be in trouble every time dh issues a command and pees herself. Gradually shes learning that if we send her out of the room etc we're doing just that and shes not going to get beaten or whatever else her previous owners seem to have taught her. Its been three years and she still has her cowering moments

Ah bronze you see you are not ssssssig at her and rolling her onto the floor each times she wees that is your problem. How about putting on a metal chain collar and yanking it really hard when she pees of course she will stop then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If she doesn't you could always kick her in the ribs and then sssh and then an electric shock collar I am sure that will sort her out!

Seriously it is a case of CM giving out a bit of information that then people who do not have any dog experience use to terrify their dogs that scares me.

Bronze you sound as if you have worked hard with your dog and she will become that confident dog again.

NOt sur eI could roll her if I wanted to shes a big dog