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Doggy Dilemma: grumpy old retriever now untrustworthy with DS (3yrs). What to do?

169 replies

Time2Hibernate · 20/10/2009 13:42

We have a retriever who has always been fairly dominant all his life, and so we've had to keep the upper hand to reinforce his position in the family. He was fine with DS when he was born, but as he has got older, so he has become very grumpy and unpredictable with other dogs, people and specifically DS.

When the dog was about 11 months (ish) he used to bite quite a bit. On one occaision he bit and wouldn't let go of my DH on the arm as he tried to put him on the lead, fortunatley it was winter and it was through a thick wax jacket. It took both DH and me to release the dog's jaws. This was prior to him being castrated which happened swiftly after the incident. He calmed down a lot with no repetitions of biting.

The dog is very big - lying down stretched out he's the same length as my DH 6'2" and weighs a hearty, all muscle, 7 stone. He knocks me off my feet if he barges past.

Couple of examples:

DS who has been playing, minding his own buisness. I was in the garden with DS who momentarily walked down the side of the house between the wall and fence to get his trike. I hear DS get distressed calling me I rush to the side of the house (which is feet away) to find the dog pinning DS to the corner, staring him out, rigid and fixed. I called the dog who fortunatley backed off immediatley, slunk past me looking guilty, and I put it immediatley into a room, away from us all.

DS wanting to come into the kitchen from outside. Dog walks to doorway and stands deliberatley in the way and then faces DS off, who is oblivious to doggy NVCs and says to the dog: excuse me...may I come through? Starts to push through and the dog's face goes towards his head. I didn't see the jaws open but the dog wasn't going to let him through and I was able to grab the dog and push DS away.

These situations occur in seconds and thank heavens, again, I was on hand to see what was happening and prevent anything serious.

I have talked to the vet the dog is grumpy, unpredictable and more difficult to manage than ever, who just said that there was nothing they could do. "Dogs get 'cantankerous' (sp?) in their old age and can revert to type as they were in their 'teens' and that's just the way it is". The dog has been checked out for various ailments and nothing evident.

I'm in a real quandary. He is unpredicatable and I have lost trust in him. If I want to keep him then he has to be shut away from children, animals and people as he just suddenly runs at them. Having a 3 yr old in the house in areas that he can't go because the dog is around is awful too. It's like having and open and closed prison and I'm the warden.

I have tried everything I can think of: training, retraining,feeding after us (which is the norm) and he's taken out for two good walks a day etc and the dog is geniuinely a grumpy, beligerent old dog, who knows how to be good but chooses when to be.

Unfortunatley, the times that he picks on DS are becoming more frequent and I'm really concerned that the 'what if' scenario is going to become a reality.

I'm so close to taking him to the vets to ask for him to be put to sleep, as I want to remember him as the nice dog we once had, without regret. But my vet is not pro putting animals to sleep so I don't know what to do or what to say.

Suggestions??

OP posts:
LittleRedCar · 21/10/2009 18:31

...

Blondeshavemorefun · 21/10/2009 20:18

wow - this has really grown since i last replied

no one is saying wait for dog to bite her dc

just that you cant put a dog down for a look

getting a behaviousrt in seems the way to go

thats a loving headbutt btw - he is not being agressive and yes hes 10.5stone so i give into him

and yes i got bitten by a dog - years ago an alstation who lived behind our house

it bloody hurt and drew blood and had to show a policeman

was on my bum

blondies give lrc and dmnc a stern look for not sharing biscuits in her direction

clam · 21/10/2009 20:42

Look, OK, so maybe no one has specifically said, "wait until he's been bitten" but you are saying "but he hasnt done anything yet" which rather implies waiting until he does.

Of course the OP is going to be watching the dog (and her DS) like a hawk from now on, but that's quite a tall order 24/7. Clearly she's fond of the dog and doesn't want to have to act, but her DS must come first.

Sure, get a behaviourist to take a look at him (if that's financially viable) but it may be that she does have to think the unthinkable about getting him a) re-homed or b) put down.

Who are we to judge her for making that decision, when she no longer feels she trusts the dog? We're not there, we don't know.

JeremyVile · 21/10/2009 20:58

So, if those doubting the op's reading of the situation are not saying op should wait for the dog to bite before considering getting rid of it then what would the dog have to do before she stops getting replies that suggest she is doing wrong by the dog? Growling at the child? Baring its teeth?
The dog seems to be making it fairly clear that its not happy sharing a home with the child - for who's benefit would it be to carry on as things are?
OP has had the dog 11 years and she is concerned at a change in its attitude towards her son, I really cant understand why such scepticism toward her reading of the situation. Her situation in her home involving her^ dog.
It reads like you're all on your own agenda rather than accepting at face value what the op says.

Also, cant believe someone actually said "the dog was there first" ffs.

moosemama · 21/10/2009 21:27

Do you mean me saying that the dog was there first. I hope not, because if so that has not been taken in context. What I actually said was, that like the OP my dogs were around long before I had children and obviously I am very attached to and love them dearly. BUT I also said that I ALWAYS (sorry don't mean to shout, I don't have the right key for italics on my keyboard) prioritise my dc's in fact I am probably far more paranoid and cautious about it than the average pet dog owner. I honestly don't know personally of any dog owning Mums that wouldn't. I love my dogs, but my children are more precious to me than life itself.

It is a shame for my dogs, since I have had my dc's their freedom has become severely restricted compared to their 'old life' and they are no longer my top priority in situations involving my dc's, I do feel bad about this, but have to accept that its just how it has to be.

JeremyVile · 21/10/2009 21:32

No, not you moosemama
You sound v sensible.

moosemama · 21/10/2009 21:38

Phew! I do try not to offend.

Ignore me, I have the flu and am apparently feeling oversensitive tonight.

As you were ladies.

DailyMailNameChanger · 21/10/2009 21:40

Clam, what you have said about possible outcomes has been said again and again through the thread. No-one has suggested they would judge her if that was the outcome. The only judgement has coming from "jumping" to conclusions as some people see it.

Vile, that is your reading of the dogs behaviour... others here are not so sure. Luckily the others here are sensible human beings who suggested that it is better to be sure with the opinion of a professional rather than the opinion of some stranger. Of course I am sure the op could go with your opinion based on a post on the internet. Personally I would rather she go with a professional who had seen the dog, the family and the whole situation.

As for accepting the op at face value - are you kidding? Go and look at any one thread on here - any, pick one randomly it won't matter. Never does the op get taken at face value, people always ask for clarification, look at things from a different POV or even say they are wrong. It is normal and healthy.

All anyone is asking for is that the op get some proper advice before making a decision. Not really a crime.

Time2Hibernate · 21/10/2009 22:31

All,

As I said yesterday I am seeking advice from a professional dog behaviourist. An appointment made already, so hey, cool down!

I love my family and that includes the big brown-eyed woofa. Hence the reason I asked the question in the first place. Rest assured that anything I do will be in the best interests of my family and woofa.

My decisions will not be in haste and balanced on fact contrary to emotions.

Although slightly concerned that my situation did raise such heated responses at times, I'm also glad that we have all debated the real issue that has shown that it is not just me who is unsure of exactly what to do and how difficult it is when your responsiblities are so varied.

A friend told me today that you'll never know how effective a risk assessment is if it actually works. It's only critisised when it goes wrong. I think there may be an element of truth to that.

Hope you feel better soon Moosemama. Thanks for your support x

And to you all, all the points are valid.

LRC: someone has to root for the dog - some of your points, though a little harsh , were good to make me think.

Now everybody, please return to eating your biscuits - i have run out of mine so may have to stoop to the level of a Bonio....

OP posts:
JeremyVile · 21/10/2009 22:37

"Vile, that is your reading of the dogs behaviour"

No.

Its the OP's reading of the dogs behaviour. You know, the dogs owner, the only one of us to knows the dog?

JeremyVile · 21/10/2009 22:38

Good luck T2H.

moosemama · 21/10/2009 22:54
Time2Hibernate · 21/10/2009 22:56

Moosemama! You're a gem xxx

OP posts:
Time2Hibernate · 21/10/2009 22:58

Anyhow, you should be tucked up under your duvet!!

OP posts:
DailyMailNameChanger · 21/10/2009 23:28

Vile, if that is the way you wish to look at it why are you bothering with Mumsnet at all? All those posts asking about the behaviour of children, men, animals... when really the op should know already as they are the person who knows the child/ person/animal and the behaviour in question. Therefore they should have all the information right?

No, not right, people ask for advice because they don't know everything and don't have all the answers. They usually want a variety of POV and options.

LittleRedCar · 22/10/2009 08:51

So glad to see this thread is finally finished

That is to say, it has reached a conclusion

So there won't be any more circular arguments

Now for the closing credits:

Moosemama get well soon!

T2H I'm glad I made you think, and I'm sorry if I was harsh. Please understand that the tone of your OP was quite different to your later posts and also that at times I kind of had to shout to make myself heard on this thread - it did get kind of heated. Also there is a lot of totally wrong and quite dangerous dog psychology being banded about these days. See Bristol University's recent study on Dominance Theory if you need a bit of bedtime reading. Wishing you all the very best and hope you reach a swift outcome, whatever the verdict.

Blondie only you could have turned a thread like this into a tale of exposing your bum to a policeman

So good luck, OP, let us know how you get on and to anyone who wants to make one last argument - get yourself to AIBU

THE END

Blondeshavemorefun · 22/10/2009 13:21

"Blondie only you could have turned a thread like this into a tale of exposing your bum to a policeman"

what can i say?

seriously t2h hope the time spent with the woofa behaviorist helps you make the right decision

DailyMailNameChanger · 22/10/2009 13:24

Lololol oh LRC, you can tell you are new around here!

Goodness, don't you realise that you can never stop a thread? Just go and ask the thread killers - it is not as easy as you think!

AND YOU ARE ALL WRONG ANYWAY

HAH

Blondeshavemorefun · 22/10/2009 13:38

thank you

DailyMailNameChanger · 22/10/2009 14:13

I wonder where LRC is? She hasn't been in to rap our knucles yet Blondes...

moosemama · 22/10/2009 15:54

I have Galaxy Cookie Crumble if anyone's interested?

LittleRedCar · 22/10/2009 16:59

Now listen you lot!

This thread is finished - over - kaput.

Adios, amigos.

Does Galaxy Cookie Crumble really exist?

sowhatis · 22/10/2009 17:22

I would put the dog to sleep.

I done 2 years dog psychology with coape and have one dog from pup and one rescue dog.

if i saw anything change in them towards my boys they would be gone.

Blondeshavemorefun · 22/10/2009 17:27

moosemama - over here please

blondes licks lips!!!

moosemama · 22/10/2009 17:28

Yes it does - and its lovely, and all gone!

F I N