Doggy Dilemma: grumpy old retriever now untrustworthy with DS (3yrs). What to do?

[Time2Hibernate]

We have a retriever who has always been fairly dominant all his life, and so we've had to keep the upper hand to reinforce his position in the family. He was fine with DS when he was born, but as he has got older, so he has become very grumpy and unpredictable with other dogs, people and specifically DS.

When the dog was about 11 months (ish) he used to bite quite a bit. On one occaision he bit and wouldn't let go of my DH on the arm as he tried to put him on the lead, fortunatley it was winter and it was through a thick wax jacket. It took both DH and me to release the dog's jaws. This was prior to him being castrated which happened swiftly after the incident. He calmed down a lot with no repetitions of biting.

The dog is very big - lying down stretched out he's the same length as my DH 6'2" and weighs a hearty, all muscle, 7 stone. He knocks me off my feet if he barges past.

Couple of examples:

DS who has been playing, minding his own buisness. I was in the garden with DS who momentarily walked down the side of the house between the wall and fence to get his trike. I hear DS get distressed calling me I rush to the side of the house (which is feet away) to find the dog pinning DS to the corner, staring him out, rigid and fixed. I called the dog who fortunatley backed off immediatley, slunk past me looking guilty, and I put it immediatley into a room, away from us all.

DS wanting to come into the kitchen from outside. Dog walks to doorway and stands deliberatley in the way and then faces DS off, who is oblivious to doggy NVCs and says to the dog: excuse me...may I come through? Starts to push through and the dog's face goes towards his head. I didn't see the jaws open but the dog wasn't going to let him through and I was able to grab the dog and push DS away.

These situations occur in seconds and thank heavens, again, I was on hand to see what was happening and prevent anything serious.

I have talked to the vet the dog is grumpy, unpredictable and more difficult to manage than ever, who just said that there was nothing they could do. "Dogs get 'cantankerous' (sp?) in their old age and can revert to type as they were in their 'teens' and that's just the way it is". The dog has been checked out for various ailments and nothing evident.

I'm in a real quandary. He is unpredicatable and I have lost trust in him. If I want to keep him then he has to be shut away from children, animals and people as he just suddenly runs at them. Having a 3 yr old in the house in areas that he can't go because the dog is around is awful too. It's like having and open and closed prison and I'm the warden.

I have tried everything I can think of: training, retraining,feeding after us (which is the norm) and he's taken out for two good walks a day etc and the dog is geniuinely a grumpy, beligerent old dog, who knows how to be good but chooses when to be.

Unfortunatley, the times that he picks on DS are becoming more frequent and I'm really concerned that the 'what if' scenario is going to become a reality.

I'm so close to taking him to the vets to ask for him to be put to sleep, as I want to remember him as the nice dog we once had, without regret. But my vet is not pro putting animals to sleep so I don't know what to do or what to say.

Suggestions??

Surely responsibility as a mother outways responsibility as a pet owner? She wouldn't be getting rid of a valued pet because she can't be bothered to deal with it anymore, it's out of concern for the safety of her son.

You should certainly not feel guilty about having loved and cared for the animal for 11 years. It's terribly sad that the dog cannot get on with the child, but she couldn't possibly have known that would happen when she bought it as a puppy.

If your concern is that she would be passing on a problem dog to someone else, there is an easy solution, have the dog put down. As I said before, if your vet won't do it, find one that will.

I'm sure we all agree that a behavioralist will not fix your dogs behavior overnight, so your child is still at risk whilst you hope that this would work. Or it could be as your vet suggested, that your dog is perfectly well trained, but they get grumpy with old age. Either way you would not forgive yourself if it attacked your child.

No, a behaviourist won't fix it overnight.

A qualified behaviourist will probably tell the OP she is completely misinterpreting the dog's actions.

She's known the dog for 11 years, but having never met it you all seem to know it better. Not sure I can accept that tbh...

but the dog hasn't bitten anyone. He hasn't even snapped at anyone and people are talking about putting the dog to sleep and children's lives being at risk? fgs a bit of perspective. .

If the dog is agressive then I agree it is not fair to pass the problem on to someone else and he should be put to sleep. But you can't put a dog to sleep because of something you think he might do.

If you are concerned about the dog's behavior towards your ds then I would speak to a behaviorist first and foremost and see if you can resolve things. The reality is that an eleven year old retriever will probably only live for a couple more years anyway, and the child is not going to be an unpredictable three year old for that much longer..

So we have to wait for the dog to actually attack the child before anythings done?
I am trying to put this in perspcetive. Dogs have big teeth and claws designed for killing. Children have very little in the way of protection. The two should not be livin together if they don't get on.
As I mentioned before I was nearly killed by a family dog who showed no signs of aggression. It is just not worth the risk.
Ideally re home the dog, but if no one wants it, unfortunately it needs to be put down.
It may only have a couple of years left, but it only needs a couple of minutes to kill or seriously maim a toddler

Agree with Gracie I'm afraid. I've also seen the damage a "family friendly" dog can cause...really not worth risking it.

Have not read all threads.

Have 2 dogs, and I am not mad about them, they are more DHs' than mine, but that's not to say I don't like them, but am not a real lover iyswim?

If it was me, I would keep the dog and boy seperate. Give the dog the run of the upstairs with a stairgate anmd let him down periodically to go to the loo.
He will have plenty of room up there, his basket, a water bowl etc. and of course his walks out.

He is of a ripe old age, a grumpy old bugger, dog homes are full and at his age he is not likely to get adopted and will live out his final year or so in a dogs' home after being a much loved and faithful family pet for all these years.

I know it is not ideal, but it can be done this way. I have done it with our two when due to us being very busy for a prolonged period of time (long story) one of ours got aggressive due to us not taking them out enough.

Will probo get flamed for saying keep the dog, but hey-ho.

All posts, even.

OFGS.

Has the dog actually showed any aggression?

Or is it just blocking the childs way? Being a cantankerous arse?

Has he beared his teeth? Growled? Snapped at the child?

Not sure which part of pinning a toddler in a corner or not allowing him in the house people don't seem to find aggressive...

But for arguments sake, if you only count baring teeth or physical attack as aggressive, then surely his domineering behaviour over the child is enough to cause concern?

Fact is the op has known this dog for 11 years and states that his behaviour is becoming increasingly worrying to her. If she loves him and can see that it's more than just stubborness then I trust her judgement over that of the people who have never met him.

Even if he is just showing a dislike for the child, I think that's enough that they need to be separated.

The dog is old - could be going senile, could be going deaf or blind or both.

The toddler was not 'pinned' by anyone or anything.

You are allowing your own very traumatic experience to distort your reading of all of this, Gracie.

but the dog hasn't bitten anyone. He hasn't even snapped at anyone and people are talking about putting the dog to sleep and children's lives being at risk? fgs a bit of perspective. .

excalty wannabe

the dog was there first and shouldnt be kicked out as he has looked at op ds

it is up to the owner to seperate dog/child

Oh, I feel a bit scared about putting my head above the parapet on this thread but ..

My feeling is that if the OP has had the dog for 11 years, even if she doesn't know a lot about dog behaviour in general she will by now be able to 'read' the body language and stance of her own pet. If she feels that his behaviour was threatening to a 3 year old child and has seen it on more than one occasion a professional behaviourist would be being negligent not to believe her, so why wouldn't we.

I too have an 11 year old dog, she is also getting to be a bit old and cantankerous, although fortunately for me I have studied dog behaviour and she is also very well trained and responsive to voice commands. On top of that she spends most of her time in a room with a dog gate on that my dcs never spend time in without an adult present. My dcs are slightly older (and younger) at 7, 5 and 9 months. The older two have been taught never to disturb a sleeping dog, never to try and take anything off one of the dogs and while they sometimes help us to dish up the dog food and release the dogs to their bowls with voice commands, they are never actually in the room with them while they eat. These are just my personal precautions for keeping my dc's safe while living with 3 dogs. My eldest son was colouring at the table this evening and one of his pens rolled off into the dog bed, he knew well enough not to go and retrieve the pen himself, but to ask me to get it back for him. I have these rules in place despite there never having been any incident or even reason for me doubt my dogs behaviour around my dcs, to me it just isn't worth the risk. Dogs are dogs, they think like dogs and act and react like dogs, we can't expect them to be/do anything else.

Back to the OP. She is obviously very worried about her dog's behaviour, has responsibly done the sensible thing and approached her vet and ruled out any health related problems and now she needs to consider her position, which is precisely why she came on here for advice.

OP, I get the feeling that you don't really want to have the dog put to sleep really and would far rather find a solution to the problem. For that to be a possibility you would need to find a very good dog behaviourist and be totally honest with them as well as agreeing to follow their advice, even if they tell you what you don't want to hear iyswim. You can find a qualified behaviourist in your area via the APBC here. Although be warned this is not going to be a cheap option, by any stretch of the imagination. In the meantime you really do have to keep your dog and dc completely separate unless you can be 100% watching the pair of them and if you still don't feel that your dc is safe, you must keep them separate ALL the time.

I was going to ask you some specific questions, but I don't think I should, because all the ones I have in my head are the ones your behaviourist should ask you and will help him/her get a better handle on the situation. It is impossible for even the best behaviourist to offer you advice about your dog's behaviour without seeing him and going through a lengthy consultation including, his history, diet, lifestyle, your lifestyle, home set up etc etc and I'm afraid for that reason noone on here is really going to be able to give you the answers that you are looking for.

I wish you luck and hope you find a solution to your problem very soon.

I kept my dodgey Shar-pei til she died of cancer.She had to be kept away from the kids at all times and went for me when i was6 months pregnant with dd3,my female chihuahua(dominant in the house) flew at her throat and dragged her into the garden and would not let her back in or near me for the rest of the day.
It was no life for her always being away from the family,but i couldnt rehome her and the rescue socities said they would put her down because of her aggression.
What im saying is its possible to keep your dog away from your child til you speak to a behavourist or find a new home for him,especially as he has not actually bitten anyone yet.I understand your fear for your child and long term exclusion is no life for a dog, but a short while will help you decide what to do safely.

Yes my traumatic experience has shaped my views. Hasn't your lack of it shaped yours? People who've suffered skin cancer are fanatical about using sun cream and warning others. Not using it will not give evryone cancer, but some will. Just because you have never been bitten doesn't mean all dogs are nice.
My point is 'the dog hasn't bitten anyone yet' is a lame argument, because she doesn't want her ds to be the first.
I just want the OP to understand that she has to do what is best for her child, and should not be made to feel guilty or 'irresponsible' as a pet owner by people who have a) never met her dog and b) never experienced the trauma of a serious dog attack.
I'm sorry if people think I'm a bit over zealous about this, but if that dog did attack her child I would want to know I'd sone everything I could to warn her to prevent that from happening, no matter how unpopular that makes me.

You're wrong, Gracie. I have been bitten. And I had to rehome a dog who was aggressive to my dc. I did it without thinking, no hesitation.

But this dog has only stood in front of the ds. A commonly perpetrated but totally wrong theory of dog behaviour is that they show dominance by going through doorways first or not letting you pass. This is based on a huge and sweeping assumption that dogs behave like a small pack of captive wolves did once, many years ago.

In actual fact wolves do not show dominance by doing this, and neither do dogs.

Wouldn't it be better to have a proper behaviourist assess the dog, than put it to sleep?

He has not 'only stood' in front of her ds. The OP says he 'picks on' him, was 'pinning him to a corner', 'deliberate face off'. She clearly suggests it's more than just getting in the way.
I'm sorry you were bitten, I only hope it wasn't as traumatic for you and your family as ours was. I'm glad it was not your dcs, but it could have been. Recognising this, why would you suggest that the OP ignore what she considers to be worrying behaviour?

Because I don't think the behaviour necessarily is worrying. 'Picks on', 'pinning him to a corner' and 'deliberate face off' are all subjective terms. They are not ones a dog behaviourist would use - they are how the OP interprets the dog's motives and she could be wrong, especially as they are not recognised dog tactics, iyswim.

Dogs are fascinated by small dc - they move fast, carry food at doggy height and make lots of noises. A dog can 'corner' a child in a totally benevolent way - just to try to catch a little mouthful of his snack, say.

There is a world of difference between a dog standing in front of a child and a dog being aggressive to a child. The OP has shown she does not understand dog behaviour by referring to the dog's guilt - an emotion they simply do not have.

And yes, my dc was bitten. I was bitten many years ago, as a child.

And I didn't say 'ignore it' - I said get a good behaviourist in, before you put the dog to sleep.

When I say attacked by a dog, I mean that my mother had to carry pieces of my face out to the ambulance, which transferred me to three different hospitals because each time the surgeons at A&E were not sure there was anything they could do.

What I'm saying is, you obviously haven't experienced this kind of trauma, or you wouldn't be suggesting it was worth the risk.

Perhaps if there was someone on here who could tell me that their child was killed by a dog, but they would still think that unless a dog has actually bitten someone it has not shown aggression I might be more inclined to respect that. Once again, I am sorry you were bitten, but when I say you lack the experience I have, I mean it with all respect. I cannot imagine your bite was very serious if you would still take the view that a cantankerous old dog and a toddler are a good mix to have in the house.

Right, that's it, I don't usually get involved with these sorts of arguments on mn or anywhere else, but I think this is getting out of hand now.

Ladies - corners please!

Gracie, LittleRedCar, you are obviously never going to agree. The OP came on here to ask for advice, which she has received, from both sides of the fence. Neither of you can be sure exactly how the dog behaved, as I said earlier only a qualified behaviourist who has seen the dog and taken a detailed history would be able to make an informed judgement on how he behaved and what it meant.

The OP has been given good advice, she knows her options are either rehome (difficult but not entirely impossible), put to sleep, or try to manage/modify any worrying or undesirable behaviour. In all three scenarios separating her dc and the dog is a must and contacting a behaviourist at the earliest opportunity would probably be sensible (even if it does just end up reinforcing the need to pts option for example should the dog be found to be suffering mentally and genuinely be becoming dangerously unpredictable).

It is her decision to make now and making judgements about how much she does or doesn't know about dog behaviour or whether or not she is protecting her dc enough is neither appropriate or necessary.

Am I right there is only one post by the Op here?

I'm sorry that happened to you, Gracie. That should never happen to anyone.

You have no way of knowing my experiences, so please do not make assumptions.

Please do not also assume every dog is like the one which attacked you.

x post - yup.

Am wondering if it is a wind up, tbh.