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Doggy Dilemma: grumpy old retriever now untrustworthy with DS (3yrs). What to do?

169 replies

Time2Hibernate · 20/10/2009 13:42

We have a retriever who has always been fairly dominant all his life, and so we've had to keep the upper hand to reinforce his position in the family. He was fine with DS when he was born, but as he has got older, so he has become very grumpy and unpredictable with other dogs, people and specifically DS.

When the dog was about 11 months (ish) he used to bite quite a bit. On one occaision he bit and wouldn't let go of my DH on the arm as he tried to put him on the lead, fortunatley it was winter and it was through a thick wax jacket. It took both DH and me to release the dog's jaws. This was prior to him being castrated which happened swiftly after the incident. He calmed down a lot with no repetitions of biting.

The dog is very big - lying down stretched out he's the same length as my DH 6'2" and weighs a hearty, all muscle, 7 stone. He knocks me off my feet if he barges past.

Couple of examples:

DS who has been playing, minding his own buisness. I was in the garden with DS who momentarily walked down the side of the house between the wall and fence to get his trike. I hear DS get distressed calling me I rush to the side of the house (which is feet away) to find the dog pinning DS to the corner, staring him out, rigid and fixed. I called the dog who fortunatley backed off immediatley, slunk past me looking guilty, and I put it immediatley into a room, away from us all.

DS wanting to come into the kitchen from outside. Dog walks to doorway and stands deliberatley in the way and then faces DS off, who is oblivious to doggy NVCs and says to the dog: excuse me...may I come through? Starts to push through and the dog's face goes towards his head. I didn't see the jaws open but the dog wasn't going to let him through and I was able to grab the dog and push DS away.

These situations occur in seconds and thank heavens, again, I was on hand to see what was happening and prevent anything serious.

I have talked to the vet the dog is grumpy, unpredictable and more difficult to manage than ever, who just said that there was nothing they could do. "Dogs get 'cantankerous' (sp?) in their old age and can revert to type as they were in their 'teens' and that's just the way it is". The dog has been checked out for various ailments and nothing evident.

I'm in a real quandary. He is unpredicatable and I have lost trust in him. If I want to keep him then he has to be shut away from children, animals and people as he just suddenly runs at them. Having a 3 yr old in the house in areas that he can't go because the dog is around is awful too. It's like having and open and closed prison and I'm the warden.

I have tried everything I can think of: training, retraining,feeding after us (which is the norm) and he's taken out for two good walks a day etc and the dog is geniuinely a grumpy, beligerent old dog, who knows how to be good but chooses when to be.

Unfortunatley, the times that he picks on DS are becoming more frequent and I'm really concerned that the 'what if' scenario is going to become a reality.

I'm so close to taking him to the vets to ask for him to be put to sleep, as I want to remember him as the nice dog we once had, without regret. But my vet is not pro putting animals to sleep so I don't know what to do or what to say.

Suggestions??

OP posts:
LittleRedCar · 20/10/2009 19:38

I've got some serious stuff here if you're interested, Shiney....that is, if your 10/10 hasn't filled you up already

DailyMailNameChanger · 20/10/2009 19:39

Thank you Moosemama

LRC can't have any though Moosemama, she has eaten at least 3/4 of that pack of biccies!

Anyway, must be off, I have a ton of emails to respond to!

moosemama · 20/10/2009 19:41

Oh, but I am a simpering peacemaker and can't bear for anyone to feel left out.

slimeoncrazydemon · 20/10/2009 19:43

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LittleRedCar · 20/10/2009 19:45

I fear our motives may not converge, Slimey

but I might pop in and give you grief one of these days - thank you, my lovely

slimeoncrazydemon · 20/10/2009 19:55

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Vallhala · 20/10/2009 20:27

Not read all of this but LittleRedCar is talking bloody good sense.

Assuming this is genuine I'd recommend a 2nd vet's opinion for hip problems, which may cause grumpiness (this dog is an aging Retriever after all)and to have the necessary scans for tumours etc - the "problem", if indeed there is one and this is more than standing in front of the OPs child, MAY be neurological.

Like LRC I too wonder how the OP has "kept the upper hand". Would you explain please OP?

If you really must give up on him, please try the Oldies website.

You can also try Black Retriever Rescue, speaking to either Jemima - Tel: 01672 811851 or Mary - Tel: 01666 837087

email: [email protected] email: [email protected]

If neither of these can help, please post here with the area you're living in, for further suggestions.

Time2Hibernate · 20/10/2009 21:44

For all the varied opinions voiced so clearly - thank you.

I am not trying to dispose of a very, very dear dog who is loved by us all. I'm just trying to think of the right thing to do as a responsible parent.

By keeping the dog in hand I mean he is not allowed in certain areas of the house and being asked to sit, wait - general good manners - before going out.

Jeepers! We've never applied cruelty techniques and I am saddened that someone would read the post like that. As for not picking up the thread, well anyone else been simply busy that they can't get to the internet? Honestly!

I will be contacting an animal behaviourist and move forward from there.

Interesting though isn't it? You are damned if you do ask the question BEFORE anything arises (perish the thought) and damned if you don't and something happens.

Gracie, I'm with you in thought too as I was mauled in the face by a Great Dane who was placid "wouldn't hurt a fly". And all I had done was walk into a room.

My DS (3yrs) has never pulled the dog or even teased it. Those rules were instated from day one. So don't blame the child. And yes, there is something different in my dog's eyes that is not the same open, gentle look we usually see. Hence why I posted. There's just something I can't trust.

I am trying to do the right thing by seeking information and taking an informed approach.

OP posts:
slimeoncrazydemon · 20/10/2009 21:52

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Gracie123 · 20/10/2009 21:53

Glad to hear it Time. I think at the end of the day it's good advice to consult a professional, but you have to listen to your instincts too. If you are still uncomfortable/can't trust the dog, it has to go.

Good luck, and I hope he does settle with a bit of a change in behavior management.

Do let us know how you get on.

moosemama · 20/10/2009 21:57

T2H, just wanted to pop back and say good luck.

I don't envy your position, like you my dogs were here before I had dc's and although I know its the right thing to do, I feel bad that my decisions now have to prioritise my dcs rather than them.

Imo, you are absolutely doing the right thing in informing yourself and asking for advice.

I guess the issue of kids and dogs is always going to be highly charged. I seem to see the same argument going round time and again, year after year.

Good luck, I hope you find a solution very soon.

Vallhala · 20/10/2009 22:20

T2H I can only echo Moose's sentiments. I hope so very much that you find a reason for the change in pooch and that you can address and resolve whatever it is without losing him. My own Lab X is 10 and I can't imagine life without him, so you might understand that I feel for you all.

Just one further note - be sure to contact a behaviouralist who is suitably qualified (ask around, consult your local vets and/or rescues) as essentially anyone can set themselves up as a behaviouralist. There are professional institutions out there but unlike GPs, vets or whatever, a behaviouralist dosn't have to be part of one.

Ideally you should be looking at those with membership of the following:

APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

ABPC The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

also COAPE CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers www.capbt.org/

Vallhala · 20/10/2009 22:22

PS T2H, if I'm one of those who offended you I can only offer my sincere apologies.

Vallhala

moosemama · 20/10/2009 22:28

Links to the organisations Vallhalla suggested, including the one I linked to earlier:

CAPBT behaviourists by area

APBC behaviourists by region

APDT

thesecondcoming · 20/10/2009 22:58

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DailyMailNameChanger · 20/10/2009 23:48

Yes thesecondcoming, I was stunned at the number of posts here saying "honestly, wait until your son has a proper bite (none of that silly nip nonsense) before you do anything at all to address the situation" too

Vallhala · 21/10/2009 01:53

But SecondComing and DM, the OP has through no fault of her own put us in a position where , with all due respect, it is impossible to see what she saw or thought she saw... we weren't there.

What I read is that the dog and the DC were in front of one another and the dog stopped and stared - hardly a crime or a potential danger. Then I read that "dog's face goes towards his head." - the OP doesn't say if the dog made a positive attempt to snap or whether the dog merely moved his face towards the DC. My dogs move their faces towards my DC's all the time, in various situations, it doesn't mean that my dogs are being aggressive to my DC.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm merely trying to say that I and others have reponded according to what we have read, nothing more.

I think that it would help if the OP would be kind enough to give more information on the second instance, and whether she felt that her dog was 'going for' her DC or whether he was merely giving a challenging signal.

In any event I'd suggest that the OP had a word with someone like the Retriever rescue I mentioned, which may be able to give advice and which also might be able to take the OPs dog if, heaven forbid, the OP decides it is necessary having considered everything she needs/wants to. Organisations such as these are generally more than happy to offer advice and help overcome problems and have a lot of experence in the area. Forgive the pun, but they don't bite!

DailyMailNameChanger · 21/10/2009 01:58

Vallhala, I think you need to re-read my first post to give you context to my final post IYSWIM.

LittleRedCar · 21/10/2009 08:20

I can't stop now, but am totally with Valhalla - we responded to the information we were given, and I for one stand by everything I said.

Even now, a 'look' in a dog's eyes does not warrant being put to sleep, which is what the OP was originally suggesting. The ageing process, which makes the lenses in a dog's eyes go slightly opaque, could account for this in an 11 year old dog.

Nobody suggested waiting for the dog to bite

I, and others, suggested seeing a qualified behaviourist. I'm glad the OP has decided to do this. Someone who thinks dogs do NVC's (which I assume to be non violent confonttations?) does not sound like someone who understands much about dog behaviour.

LittleRedCar · 21/10/2009 08:41

DMNC - can you show me where anyone said the OP should wait for a 'proper bite' please - or any bite at all for that matter?

So many posts on here that I must have missed it.

Gracie123 · 21/10/2009 08:56

NVC means non verbal communications little red. Your assessment of the OP is pretty unfair, especially as dogs do use nvc - they can't speak...

thesecondcoming · 21/10/2009 08:57

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LittleRedCar · 21/10/2009 09:00

Gracie - my mistake, but I still stand by my assertion that a dog standing in front of you does not mean it should be put down.

2nd coming - that probably answers you too. Except to add that dogs and small children should never be left unsupervised, whatever the dog's tmeperament.

abra1d · 21/10/2009 09:01

Could the dog be crated for the part of the day when the 3-year old is around? Presumably he's at nursery at least part of the week.

Also, has the vet checked your dog's teeth? Our elderly dog was very unhappy at one stage and it turned out she had dental trouble. She wasn't snappy but she was withdrawn.

Gracie123 · 21/10/2009 09:05

I agree with the part that they should never be left alone together, but perhaps that is the part the op is findig unmanageable? It's difficult to keep an inquisitive toddleraway from anything (my son managed to steal 8 chocolate muffins yesterday!)
I think t2h's post sounds like she is feeling overwhelmed by the situation and something needs to change. Not least because her stress levels will be picked up on by the dog, who may well misinterpret it that his owner is stressed out by this child and create a greater emnity between them.