To ask you to sign this petition to tax wealth rather than attacking the most vulnerable members of society?

[QuestionableMouse]

https://www.change.org/p/tax-wealth-don-t-cut-disability-support

I've signed it.

If the cuts do ahead thousands of people are going to be badly affected (me included due to long COVID which has left me chroniclly unwell)

You imagine incorrectly.

I stand to lose nothing from the proposed cuts, it's called empathy.

Inheritance tax is 40% only on over 325k ( often double that if it’s married parents ) - more half a million tax free HALF A MILLION - and usually that value is from property that people may have paid 7k for back in 1970. It’s never been taxed.

less than 4% of estates pay anything - the richest 4%
tax the top10% after they have died rather than the top 4%
we need money into the system and the poor don’t want to pay more and the rich don’t want to pay more so the dead paying more seems the least painful option

When it’s from house value growth - its never been taxed

But that is on top of tax on income, tax on savings, tax on purchases, it's not instead of all the existing taxes. Will that also include pension pots? Many people have millions in pension pots.

Ten million sounds like a lot, but much of that may be a house and people have worked hard to get that money, ten million today is like 1 million not that long ago, practically a possibility for families with two parents working earning £100,000 plus each and being prudent. I think a much higher threshold would be needed to just catch the actual really rich, maybe £50M, but they really are in a position to just leave the country or put much of their wealth out of reach.

Personally, I think the IHT tax rate needs to be slashed, to something like 10%, but at the same time, drastically reduce the thresholds to maybe £100k. Someone inheriting a quarter of a million pound average small house and some savings can afford £15k IHT. With a much smaller rate, it would barely be worth the professional fees to set up trusts etc to avoid it. Get far more people paying it, but much smaller amounts and the tax revenue would be a lot higher. A smaller rate would mean more estates would pay it because the tens of thousands of pounds in accountant/solicitor fees to avoid it simply wouldn't be worthwhile for the average estates.

I'd also probably scrap the main residence relief for capital gains tax on someone's home, but bring in a new lower rate of say 5% on the gain, so again, will bring in huge sums of tax, but unlikely to be large enough to damage the market. At the same time be tougher on people such as tradesmen and property investors who serially buy "do-er uppers", live in them for a short time whilst doing up, then sell off with profits/gains tax free - far too much of that being allowed to happen.

We really need to start taxing "unearned" gains whether from sale of assets or inheritances.

@QuestionableMouse , I was offering you a potential solution to two issues you have. I used to eat a lot of bread and it’s been a process to get my diet where it is but it is now extremely anti inflammatory and super healthy as well as pretty cheap. You have nothing to lose and much to gain by listening to the podcast and reading the books I suggest, it won’t even cost you a penny. You could choose to do all in your power to take your health in your own hands and that may well mean that you’re released from your debilitating migraines and in turn able to return to work which would be so much better for you as well as less of a burden on the state which is paid for by those who take responsibility for themselves and go out to work and pay tax. You are not powerless in this situation.

The wealthiest already pay tax on their income.
That is the most logical due to liquidity.
It is ridiculaous that an owner of, say, an historical valuable old building or farm etc has to sell off a percentage of that building each year to pay tax. How will their income raising business stay intact and profitable and able to employ people if the guts are ripped out of their capital assets?
It is an illogical idea.

Only healthy charitable businesses can afford to employ quite disabled people. I have a disabled cousin who is employed on an historical site as a gardener. Their business paying more tax is a real threat to her well being. Disabled people like to contribute and to be as productive as they can be. They like learning skills but it is unfair when they can't work and gain pride from their success.
The disability pension allows for people to earn a little on top of their pension. That should continue.

I doubt it.

She went into hospital a few weeks ago and was discharged back to the care home on end of life with the NHS funding her fees for the next 12 weeks before review.

Exactly. This was examined in depth on Radio 4 a couple of weeks ago. I forget the programme name but something to do with tax. And apparently the evidence for this is overwhelming.

Using hyperbole to uphold an argument is never a good move. People die all the time, disabled people die all the time, poor people die all the time.
Forcing the wealthiest citizens to pay even more money in taxes isn’t the solution you think it is. Ensuring that everyone, regardless of their disability status, could be supported to engage in gainful employment where they are physically capable is what we should be fighting for. Many people with physical disabilities could work but don’t work because it’s so difficult to do so as the support systems are impossible to access or negotiate. Increasing their benefits so that they would be worse off in employment isn't a wholesale solution.
We should be in a position whereby those who cannot work have a good quality of life, and those who could work with the right support get that support.

This is super patronising. Can you not see that? Quite ironic given your user name.
This comment reminds me a bit of the people who when hearing DH and I were having IVF years ago would say something like "oh we had trouble too. You should try using those ovulation predictor sticks?"

@QuestionableMouse aldi have gf bread for £1.69.

Well exactly @QuestionableMouse , why not suggest we change the nil tax band for something like 2-3%? Hopefully people that will need to pay will be happy to, otherwise you can tell them they don’t care about disabled people dying.

I won’t sign, because it’s overly simplistic and won’t have the effect that’s desired.

Generally, the more wealthy the individual the more mobile they and their assets are.

Any plan to increase tax revenue by disproportionately targeting higher income or wealth groups needs very, very careful consideration. A great example being when Scotland changed its higher rate tax band. Someone who earns £90k in Scotland now pays £3k more in tax a year than one in England. Previously those people paid £27k a year in tax and NI. If one in every ten move their tax address out of Scotland, Scotland is worse off as a result of the vote pleasing tactic. No prizes for guessing what happened.

That could be a good idea. Especially as wealthier people are more likely to pay FAs to utilise trusts to reduce the tax payable.

Anyone wealthy enough to be looking to set up trusts is probably well able to pay a bit more tax (or the recipients after their death…).

You could make it yourself. I'm a single full time working mum and I make all our bread because the stuff in the supermarkets is such sour rubbish, and I'm not prepared to pay £4.50 at the local bakery.

It really isn't hard and it might ease your budget a little.

Our politicians of the last 30 years or so have actually created a mindset of tax avoidance by deliberate policies. It was once the case where paying tax was considered something good, and still is in many countries, but here in the UK, it seems to have become a race to the bottom with people wanting to avoid paying taxes at all aided and abetted by politicians of all colours!

Raising personal income tax allowances and employee NIC starting rate so that no one pays either until they have taxable income over £12.5k.

No income tax, capital gains tax, etc., on potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds of savings/investments in ISAs

Zero rate tax bands for small amounts of interest or dividends

Upto a further £5k of tax free interest via personal savings allowance on top of tax free personal allowance.

Tax relief on pension contributions

Govt tax rebate top ups on help to buy ISA

Tax reliefs on VCT and EIS investments

All sending a strong signal encouraging people not to pay tax.

And that's just the legal stuff. We also have an almost total lack of enforcement of tax evasion, i.e. black economy, cash in hand work, cash in hand VAT free tradesmen, selling duty free booze and cigs, etc etc. The black economy costs the country tens of billions per year due to lack of HMRC enforcement.

Agreed.

We've come to a point where UK society is so messed up it's more beneficial to be deemed disabled than not as it gives access to so many benefits in terms of money, housing, employment grants and other support.

Add to that the entitlement culture we live in and all the adverts on e.g online newspapers saying 'Do you have one of these ten physical or mental health conditions? Then YOU could be entitled to £££ from the government, click here for how to apply' and that's how we've got to where we are now.

You might look on it as a "tax for the super wealthy' but it never remains that way. Income tax was supposed to be a one off tax to pay for war. How did that turn out?! Very quickly, any level will quickly be frozen and then it will be reduced so £10m will become £8m and then down it will go because it will always be "just a little bit more" and people who are not rich at all will be hit until actually you can't really accrue any assets because they are taxed . Now, one might say "is that such a bad thing?". Well, it's communism and if that's the end game own it.

The reality is that there should be a low flat tax for everyone with no allowances for tax free savings or allowances.

Where you are right is that those with assets can avoid tax, but we all do it to a larger or smaller extent. Anyone who uses an ISA or pension tax rebates does exactly that. Using a personal example, my ISA allowance has been maxed out for 25 years now. I have made sure that my husbands is also maxed out (we have been married 20 years so you can do the maths) and then our children the same. (I deal with all the finance in our household). In retirement, that will be a huge income which the tax man won't be able to tax at all. There are many, many others like us. If you taxed everyone at a lower rate (say 20%) then you would actually increase tax take and people won't leave because they will think actually that's fair and avoidance wouldn't happen as it would just be simple evasion. Tax people in the way you are suggesting and people will just leave. Assets are not just houses and money/shares can be held anywhere.

Why? I don’t work due to disability. I claim zero benefits. I live off savings interest that is taxed, and capital that has already been taxed. Why should I work if I don’t need to, and don’t want to?

@hairbearbunches But not all, so how will you differentiate?

I left home with basically £0. A few quid I had earned in the summer holidays. If I go under a bus tomorrow, my ds will get my pension pot - 100% earned (my employer pays legal minimum), and he will get about 85% of the value of the house. The govt will get the other 15%

My house has increased in value since I bought it, BUT only because, lacking capital, I bought a near-ruin. Over the last 14 years, I have rebuilt, repointed, replastered, reinsulated, redecorated and retiled throughout.

I have paid for (with earned & taxed income) a new roof, new wiring, a new bathroom, new windows and exterior doors, new kitchen, new heating & plumbing. I have worked most weekends to bring a house back from near dereliction. I have provided employment for local trades.

I have returned a badly needed family home to being warm, safe and dry, and part of our national housing stock. It was on the market for 2 years and no-one else wanted it.

So its value is not unearned or inherited, thanks !

@Shwish , I think you may not have seen my previous conversation with the OP and their response. It was not meant to be patronising at all.

@Shwish , that’s three comments in quick succession you’ve got the wrong end of the stick about. 🥴

Because you're not contributing enough, either in terms of working nor paying enough tax, for all the benefits you get from the other taxpayers, and I'm not meaning direct benefits such as state pension or disability benefits, I'm meaning infrastructure, health, security, an educated workforce, social services, etc. The little indirect taxes you'll be paying on say VAT, fuel and alcohol duties plus council tax, won't be anywhere near enough for what you're taking out in terms of benefitting from living in a developed country with lots of public services.

Hmm I thought the poster you were responding to had said something along he lines of "respectfully I don't need dietary advice" but you gave it anyway. Maybe there was another post in between that I missed.

When I sold my business because I became too ill to work, I paid over £500,000 in tax. I think I’ve more than paid my dues, thank you. I’m also paying over £4000 a year in council tax which is more than someone on NMW would pay in income tax and NI, plus tax on savings and investments. Don’t try and tell me I’m a drain on society. I’m lucky that I am in a very fortunate position that I don’t need benefits, and I’m not forced drag my dying body into the workplace to keep the vultures happy. Most people aren’t that lucky.