To ask you to sign this petition to tax wealth rather than attacking the most vulnerable members of society?

[QuestionableMouse]

https://www.change.org/p/tax-wealth-don-t-cut-disability-support

I've signed it.

If the cuts do ahead thousands of people are going to be badly affected (me included due to long COVID which has left me chroniclly unwell)

Taxing wealth at 45% means that (a) after two years you’d have taken almost all the wealth but (b) you’d never get there as there’d be an exodus. If the wealthy, who also form part of the income tax paying population, leave then a large chunk of income tax revenue also leaves. As income tax contributes almost 30% of all tax revenues, and 60% of that comes from the top 10% of earners, who are also going to the wealthy that you hit with wealth tax that’s going to leave a hole in tax revenue that makes the £24 billion problem this government caused pale into insignificance. It’s roughly £200 billion, which would lead to the end of the NHS and welfare state as we know it!

Oh yes I agree, spending in the NHS and welfare needs reform. But, to fund a robust welfare state fundamentally means we need to be a higher tax economy, and that tax burden needs to be born by many more taxpayers than at present.

I think both should happen.

It's not one or the other.

I get what you’re saying but it’s a poorly thought through policy. We’d do better somehow making sure that massive organisations that make huge profits in the uk actually pay full tax here (would Amazon be a good example?)….I think you’d do better reducing the amount of time tax exiles are allowed to come to the UK per year - they’re not paying tax here so shouldn’t mind not being able to come back more than a a couple of weeks🤷🏼‍♀️

A huge % of council tax is going towards gold plated public sector pensions.

45% wealth tax !!!!!! A ludicrous suggestion. So someone has started a business from scratch which is now worth £10 milllion and employs 100 people. The entrepreneur owns 100% of that business. In the first year he pays £4.5 mill in wealth tax and can no longer sustain investment in his business, so he closes it and outs 100 people out of work. The business also then has little or no value so next year there will be no revenue from a wealth tax.
So gradually in order to keep the money rolling in the government has to reduce the threshold every year, because they have decimated the £ of the wealthiest or they and their capital have fled the country. So then threshold is £3mill.
Down the road there is a farmer who owns a farm whose asset value is £3 mill because it's a few 100 acres producing food for the nation but making little cash profit. In order to pay even year 1 wealth tax, he has to sell the farm to a property developer. The following year his net worth falls below the threshold and the property company is a PLC so also doesn't pay wealth tax.
The law of diminishing returns writ large.

And for those who think the better off should pay more tax - just how much is fair? 60%/70%80% of income? why the fuck would anyone bother striving and achieving?

The non-doms bring money to the UK

Big international companies play the global tax system in order not to pay taxes, the UK government cannot change it alone, but what the population could do is to stop using these companies.

I look forward to the day where there’s a trade union/Labour demo in front of every Starbucks, Boots and Amazon warehouse etc. to explain to potential clients they make the state (and themselves) poorer in the long term.

I look forward to the day where the British government encourages the creation of local competition rather than pandering to the Silicon Valley and multinationals.

You want a richer, fairer country?
Buy independent, British or a company that doesn’t siphon their profits offshore.

It was announced yesterday Starbucks didn’t pay anything in tax last year because they use international loopholes. That’s what people should be up in arms about. This morning, if the people cared to put their money where their mouth is, every Starbucks in this country should be empty. Every time you buy there, it’s less money in the UK tax pot.

Just checked and it's 23.5% of council tax goes to local authority pensions.

So is this wealth tax levied on UK residents, or UK assets, or both?

Because UK residents can, and will, leave. If you had £30m of wealth from, say, building a business and working hard - then you have to pay 2% of that value in tax. Where does the money come from? A dividend? So the company needs to earn enough to pay 25% corporation tax, you to pay ~40% dividend tax and then there’s enough left over to pay 2% of your wealth in tax each year?

That’s almost £1m of profit you need each year JUST to pay tax. So how do you get that profit? By increasing prices and reducing costs - likely wage costs. So the average person is already suffering. A £30m business might only be making £3-5m of profit a year, so that’s a huge proportion you’ve taken to pay tax.

Maybe you sell your business - but now who wants to buy it to take on that level of tax. Certainly not an international buyer - no one will want to put foreign investment into the UK now if you’re going erode their investment with tax. So now we’ll see less development in the UK, as a lot of retail/commercial type developments are funded by non UK cash.

And if you’re a 40 year old entrepreneur with tens of millions of pounds in value there is actively contributing to the economy, are you staying here to watch your wealth erode to £10m over 50 years (I know that’s not quite how the percentages work - but it’ll be a significant erosion all the same), with 40% of that £10m to be paid in inheritance tax when you die? Or do you move to Dubai, where tax is lower and investment and development is thriving - and you can grow your wealth faster with a better lifestyle.

Draining wealth and investment from a country will not see the lives of the ordinary person get better. Speak to anyone who’s having their hours cut as a result of NMW and NIC increases this week.

Wealth taxes don’t work and so most jurisdictions don’t have them. So no, I won’t sign what would be a meaningless petition even if I did support wealth taxes.

Look you can obviously believe what you want but the fact is if you DONT tax assets the rich will just buy up more and more assets, making everything less attainable to everyone else. You want to buy a house? Well they're more expensive because the rich can buy loads of them so there's less to go around. But dont worry they'll rent one of them to you at extortionate rates so you'll not be able to save money to buy your own. Or if you're really lucky they'll fund your mortgage so you pay them interest meaning they can spend THAT money on buying more properties. Or maybe they'll buy up the utilities, you know like say Thames Water? Then they'll reduce services to make more profit, meaning the government has to put it's own money (which means yours and mine) into it to prop it up, all the whole those rich people are still taking their profits. Oh and they can buy the media too. So they can decide what we're told.

And salaries.

What countries do have a wealth tax and does it work there?

Or if you're really lucky they'll fund your mortgage so you pay them interest meaning they can spend THAT money on buying more properties.
Last time I looked, the main mortgage companies were either mutuals like Nationwide or public companies owned by many 1000s of shareholders and pension funds. You're talking nonsense.

Yes ! This!

@Shwish It’s modern feudalism, and it really boils my piss that so many people can’t see it. England will always be a nation of cap doffers.

Signed. Thank you for sharing!

Agree that these cuts to disabled people’s incomes are inhumane because they set out to reduce disabled people’s dignity and they deny their financial needs. The effect to tip disabled people into (or further into) poverty and risk of exploitation.
But also these cuts are a false economy because the needs will still remain whatever the government does want to acknowledge them or not. So the needs will have to be picked up at a crisis point elsewhere in the NHS or social care system at much greater cost to taxpayers money and with multiple and harder to manage problems involved at that point.

Society is unequal and that has huge negative implications for society - it drives crime and sadness
and stress

( and I am laughing sadly at the gold plated council pensions - do people think your average retired TA or bin collector is rolling in cash ? Do you begrudge the teacher or nurse a pension in line with those from other professions ? That isn’t what is driving inequality - it may be jealously that others have a little more - but those pensions are not the big driver and source of inequality)

the things we want - decent education and decent health care - are barely afloat

we could fix some of this if people took more responsibility for their own health and education of their children - we would free up huge amounts of NHS budget if people lost weight and got off the sofa to move. If kids had basic behaviours like listening and ability to go to the loo, and the ability to accept that not everything will be fun, that would help schools - that drives down the front end demand and costs. That’s taking collective responsibility. Bring back sure start.

but the biggest problem is still housing costs which are propagated through the generations by inheritance. Whack up inheritance tax - a type of wealth tax that only is taken once you have died - and find ways to stop bank of mum and dad giving a leg up to a child who can’t make their own way and you get more money into the system , house prices won’t be able to carry on rising ( it’s driven by FTB with mummy’s money ) , that would control care home and nursery costs - all those secondary problems that we have

its a type of wealth tax but it’s implications for growing businesses isn’t as hard ass other wealth taxes and it avoids the problem of the (house) asset rich cash poor being forced to sell up - personally id rather do the selling up and paying taxes after I die not before ( not fair actually as it wouldn’t impact me so o don’t really know how I would feel )

although perhaps a “max profit” before you got additional taxes in businesses wouldn’t go amiss also

@Shwish So you want landlords taxed on property as well as on profits? You must know that means they would sell. I’d get that chip off your shoulder and see the bigger picture. Taxing wealth harms a country. It stifles growth and makes people invest elsewhere. It drives people away. We need people to invest and grow business here. It’s already not the best place to do that but your needs depend on it.

@TizerorFizz moving away from a renter economy is NOT a bad thing, ffs.

Whack up inheritance tax - a type of wealth tax that only is taken once you have died - and find ways to stop bank of mum and dad giving a leg up to a child who can’t make their own way and you get more money into the system , house prices won’t be able to carry on rising ( it’s driven by FTB with mummy’s money ) , that would control care home and nursery costs - all those secondary problems that we have

Inheritance tax is already 40% on money that has already probably been taxed at 40%. That's quite a high rate. Why should I not be able to help my child not have to struggle like previous generations? My welath is not a piggy bank for the government to dip its hands in. I'm happy to pay tax but not be a charity for HM Gov.

@mateysmum Rubbish. Most of what passes down through inheritance is unearned and untaxed housing wealth.

You are suggesting something that fundamentally breaks the 'rules' of society. Rules we all rely upon to navigate our lives and make important decisions.

Would anyone choose to setup a risky business if they know that their wealth would basically be eroded away if they were successful and if they were unsuccessful (which is far more likely) then they would be ruined? Where is the incentive to grow successful businesses and innovate if you know that the government will start whittling away your assets once you reach a certain threshold?

Also, most importantly as many people have already pointed out, very few rich people are going to hang around in the UK and watch their assets being diminished when there are loads of countries with far more favourable tax regimes welcoming them with open arms. I think once we start looking to wealth taxes as the answer and the truly rich pack and leave then the threshold for what makes someone rich will inevitably have to drop. Isn't a millionaire rich? What about someone with half a million? It won't just stop at the mega rich as we seek to claw back losses that have been made from the exodus of the super rich and mobile.

We have to maintain the principle that assets can't be taxed. They belong to the individual and are a certainty that individuals can rely upon.

People like you and me will pay a chunk of inheritance tax. I don’t really object to it at current levels - I want my DD to benefit from our years of work (wanting your kids to have a better life is a big natural motivator!), but am happy to contribute to the society she lives in.
Wealthy people usually don’t pay much inheritance tax - they can make use of legal avoidance schemes such as family trusts. There should be some scope for making this more equitable. It needs doing in ways that work for the longterm good of the country though, not short term grabs. Forcing people to sell land, property, companies - likely to foreign ‘investors’ isn’t a good long term strategy.

40% is only paid on anything OVER. £1million on a lot of estates. That is bloody ridiculous. And plenty more super rich estates pay considerably less than that.
And for the PP that accused me of having a chip on my shoulder. I really don't. We're doing ok. I'm lucky enough to have bought my first house in 2009 so I've personally done OK out of the current system. Its the youngsters I'm worried for. How can they ever expect to afford anything for themselves? How will they be able to live when they can't afford property and their massive taxes on small incomes have to support the aging population's pensions and healthcare? It's a fucking joke.