Labour’s plans for VAT on Private Schools

[Busydadof2]

The Labour Party has proposed introduction of VAT on private schools.

In the scheme of things the money they will bring in from this is tiny compared with total expenditure on state schools, while it will drive more burden on the state system as some parents leave private schools. I think this is a populist ploy to get traditional Labour voters to vote for what is in any other sense a centrist party.

Have you considered signing this petition to make sure the policy gets scrutinised and the weight of public sentiment against it is known?

Change.org petition: Stop Labour from adding 20% VAT to private school fees and forcing kids to change schools

www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools

Various perspectives from the signatories of this vote come to mind and resonate with our own situation, including this: “I work in a state school with over 30 in a class and oversubscribed. My 2 kids went or go to private schools and we have sacrificed loads to do this. We are NOT wealthy, many of the kids at the school I work at live in bigger houses and have much more disposable income than we do. We chose to send our kids to private school rather than live in a bigger house instead of our semi detached on a main road. We holiday in the UK every year and I work full time. I buy my clothes on the high street or in charity shops. Many parents at the school my kids attend are in exactly the same situation. I agree there are some very wealthy parents there too and the addition of VAT will not even make an impact on them, they will pay it without batting an eyelid. All this will do is push the kids like ours back into an already oversubscribed state system, increase class sizes even more and create a bigger divide as private education will become truly elitist.”

That is the beauty of choice. And that ability to have choice is fundamental for many. I absolutely know people who choose not to use private or state schools for various reasons - but they have the choice and aren't suggesting others should not have that option open to them.

This is to the ban brigade. Paying more tax fine. It is all philosophical until you want to prevent others from having the choice. And it often sounds like the VAT point isnt about just that - as you say it is fundamental and the ultimate goal is to ban private schools.

If they ever got their way, my kids would be finished from school anyway so this isnt about personal interest. Fundamentally you should be able to pay for a different service if you are not happy with the general offering or prefer an alternative for any reason as long as there is an entity willing to offer that alternative service

I agree.

Yes, another populist shot in the foot

@Another76543

Do the local schools force parents to give their children mobile phones? If not, what's the problem?

Personally I would make it so the total household income - combined or by single parent - would have to be less than £100,000 or thereabouts. I went to grammar school, and the number of girls who had a private place lined up if they didn’t pass the 11+ was unimaginable - probably 70% of them, minimum. At least half came from prep schools. 100k may seem like a lot but it’s not enough to pay 2 lots of school fees at 50k (most people have 2 children) plus a mortgage, and all the rest of it. I think that would be fair and squeeze out the very wealthy using them.

Couldn't agree more

I think private schools are a key component of the mixed economy present within the UK's educational sector and provide diversity and choice. Let's also not overlook that the UK's private schools are a key 'export' of the UK economy, attracting international students with major revenue implications for the UK economy. Things shouldn't become a race to the bottom of knee-jerk populism

I like this thinking. But the problem I see is the threshold and lack of choice. If a family was on say £150k combined - not crazy wealthy but doing relatively ok (say a couple on £75k each). They would not be able to access grammar schools but would also not he able to afford private school.

Considering that ONLY 5% earn £87k or more in the UK and the top 1% earn £183k or more, a £100k threshold would squeeze out some middle earners unfairly I think.....but I am sure these things can be modelled

If the VAT is introduced, I will be sending our 2 children currently at a private school to the best state school in our local area. This will unfortunately displace two children from being able to attend that good school who don't live as close as we do. This will cost the state £16k (£8k/child average) where it wasn't before (yet I was paying taxes towards upkeep of state schools). And there won't be a VAT contribution from me from private school fees since we will be taking our kids out!

I don't see how this helps the state sector - I know about a quarter of all parents at our private school will be sending their kids to state schools and many live near the better quality state schools. This will simply put excessive pressure on the already struggling state school system, and displace other kids to less good schools.

It's not only a nill-sum-gain - it's a shot in the foot !

@newmummycwharf1

Hold on, you say a couple on £75k each can't afford private school? This thread is full of folk explaining how they are more aspirational than the rest of us because they send their kids to private school on a shop assistant's wage - all by not going on holiday to Benidorm and having a tiny television.

The only people it will benefit are the ones looking for votes

I wonder if any MP’s dc would be in the displaced number. They’d only have themselves to blame. Maybe they’re used to getting good state and will continue

There will be Labour voters championing it whose dc will lose out, that’s just numbers

@Naptrappedmummy I live in Bucks. Lots of children go to state schools - very nice grammar schools. House prices are astronomical in catchment (the average house price around William Borlase in Marlow is about 850K). The majority of these children are massively prepped and go private if they don’t get in.

Why would you pay 20% more on school fees when when you could use that for a mortgage and move into catchment (thereby pricing out other families)? Say you have 2 kids and only 1 gets in still a massive saving (and when kids leave school you’ll be able to downsize and release lots of equity).

The private schools round here tend to focus on children who are bright but with mild SEN/ND so need greater pastoral support or didn’t pass 11+.

Round here VAT on school fees will likely only increase inequality (and hike house prices) rather then decrease. I can see more and more families applying for EHCPs as they won’t be able to keep kids in private school and they will need far more support adaptations in state school.

In London - it would be very difficult. Definetely doable elsewhere. Smaller preps for sure. But Day secondary would be difficult with 2 kids and maintaining your lifestyle (holidays etc).

I am from an immigrant background and I can tell you people from my background on lower earnings would sacrifice anything for academically selective schools including living in tiny flats and no holidays etc. But on a population level - even within the 4% that attend private school, they are not the majority in London.

Also many of them may be 'philosophically' opposed to private but keen on academic selection. That threshold takes that choice away from them

Exactly, the 'we can afford private school because we are willing to make sacrifices' brigade are largely talking rubbish.

@newmummycwharf1

If they can't afford private on £150k they should take on more work, downsize, get rid of unnecessary luxuries like televisions and holidays, sell a kidney or move to where it's cheaper. Don't they care about their children? Have they no aspirations? We've heard how every child in private on this thread is simultaneously too bright for state school and also SEND. How callous to only let yourself earn £150k when your children need you.
BTW, there's no evidence that academic selection produces better educational outcomes for a country.

Since there is no evidence - then let them at it. More fool them for spending their hard earned money when the outcomes dont matter right. As they say, a fool and his money are soon parted.

What does it matter to you if they choose to spend their money in this way?

I remember some parents up in arms about homework and no evidence for homework in the primary near us and literally petitioning the school not to set any home work in primary. Why not petition for your own kids to be able to skip submitting it and allow the ones who want to waste their time do so??

The demographic in private schools has changed significantly since the 90s due to fee rises. Nevertheless, there are clearly still an uninsignificant number making crazy sacrifices to access it. But it is certainly (especially in London - given high house prices and the lifestyle) out of the reach of many. That is not to say we should make it more so!

And regardless of what people think £150k household income is not rich, no way near. It is comfortable in some parts of the UK but not rich and yes as a nation we can do more and we can aspire to be collectively wealthier.

People are conditioned to think these numbers are wealthy because of the low wage economy and the Big State stepping in to top up poor-paying employers. 'You dont need to earn much cos healthcare and education is free and we even top it up if it is below a certain amount' - resulting in your outcomes being determined by external forces. No thank you

1/4 dropout of private school you say? Will they bollocks.

and arguing that we should keep private schools cheaper because wealthy foreigners use them is the worst argument I’ve ever heard.

Yes, heaven forbid we try to attract wealthy immigrants.

@newmummycwharf1

But selective grammar schools are virtually free to the users. They are a method of redistributing wealth from the poorest to the most well off. They do nothing for the educational standards of a country other than reinforce epidemiological inequalities. I don't care if parents choose to send their children private, I just want the schools to be charged VAT and business taxes. The country needs to prioritise excellent comprehensive education with a varied curriculum that rewards knowledge, skills and understanding. We also need to stop dithering and genuinely address the severe social inequality in this country which is the chief factor in educational outcomes. We have models of how to do it just across the North Sea, we don't need to look to the far east or to the 19th century.

How does selective education redistribute wealth from poorest to the richest? The way it is now - yes. Making it more widely available - would be the way to go.

The inequalities gap is widening and a low wage economy and people being lulled to sleep because the State will take care of them contributes to that. We address inequalities by growing our economy, paying people a living wage and weaning working people off State top-ups. Build aspiration for all - it can turn around in a generation. But divisive politics aint it - it simply aims to allow more to sink in.

Private schools will pay taxes and rates - tick. It wont solve the real problem though and that is where the conversation should be.

Longest thread I have ever been involved in on mumsnet! I'm out - will watch it all play out haha

@newmummycwharf1

Some of us have studied this quite closely, rather than going with what we feel is right.

https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Social-Mobility-–-Past-Present-and-Future.pdf

https://www.gov.gg/chttphandler.ashx?id=97485&p=0

https://www.mixedattainmentmaths.com/uploads/2/3/7/7/23776169/whatisspreventingsociallmobility22.pdf

equalitytrust.org.uk/social-mobility-and-education

www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/9789264300002-4-en.pdf?expires=1708350063&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=22C089F51C7680B8AB7206DC23A56A6B

This policy will just heighten the demand for selective state

Or via house prices

I'm assuming you mean you will send your children to the best secondary school in the area and they are currently primary aged?

They wouldn't get a place and other children pushed out who are already there, just because you live closer.

how dare we ask the wealthy foreigners for tax. They should do all trade in U.K. tax free!

also, you really think someone who’s willing to spend £15k to send their kids to U.K. private school is going to go elsewhere because now it’s £18k? Give over.

Have you looked at how the Swiss are expanding their private schools at the moment? So, yes, they will find where to go. The loss will be ours, and it will be more than the billions Keir Starmer is dreaming will come from this policy.

it’s not just education we’re selling, by having the children of the rich come here and be educated here, we’re selling future influence.

I don’t think pp get that this type of education is an asset for us overseas

Labour will damage it for a few votes, they’d probably get anyway. What utter twazzocks